Can regional airlines really afford to pay more?
 

First off I am not an airline pilot so I am just puting it out that I might not know anything that I am talking about( so please no sarcarstic or derogatory replies). Obviously I have noticed that many regional airline pilots complain about their first year's( and beyond) wages. While I too think that getting paid less than $20,000 a year is deplorable, I have to ask the question, "Do regional airlines just not have the money to pay their pilots any more than they are getting paid?" Yes, I realize that airline management members get paid loads of money and being the liberal that I am, I think that is horsesh*t. However, even if management's salaries were cut in half and divided up among all the pilots, would it really benefit the pilots that much??? It seems like everyother month you hear about an airline going bankrupt or merging with someone else. Can they afford to pay the pilots more? From my knowledge, before deregulation( and low-cost carriers), airline tickets cost much more than they do today. Could that not be the main reason that pilots are not being paid as well, just because ticket prices are lower?

Hmmmm.....

In a word...YES! You very rarely hear about pilots at major airlines complaining about their starting pay because it is usually well above poverty level. Regional airline starting pay isn't...not even close...especially given the training and skill involved. One of the reasons for this is that regional airlines thrive on contract flying for the majors...that is their bread and butter. In order to win business, they have to be cheaper than the competition. In order to be cheap, they can't pay their employees Jack! This of course makes them very profitable and so management gets millions and I/we get 20K a year to start and so on.

The major airlines are faced with more price sensitive customers than ever before. With the proliferation of low cost carriers offering rock bottom fares, the majors are forced to cut their own costs to be competitive with these guys and offer lower fares that keep planes filled. This re-tooling is making some restructured airlines moderately profitable and so again management gets millions and I/we get pensions taken away, benefeits and wages reduced and longer work days.

Oh and the government doesn't see anything wrong with this. But they do however see a need to block legal job actions even though the Railway labor act says they are allowed.

I don't particularly give a flying fark whether they can afford it or not. At this point the very best thing regional pilots could to to retrieve their career from the flames is to get so prohibitively expensive that it no longer makes sense to outsource to the regionals. Killing the regionals should be ALPA's #1 goal. Of course then you'd have clueless RJDC d0uchebags complaining that they're not adequately representing regional pilots...

2Q 2007 Operating Profit/Loss $(Millions)

Atlantic Southeast: 40
American Eagle: 53
Pinnacle: 14
Sky West: 48
Comair: 20
Mesa: 9
Express Jet: -40

Seven-Carrier Total: 143

From these numbers, it would appear that Express Jet is the only one not in position give pilots a raise. Even if you gave pilots at these airlines a $5/flying hour raise, you wouldn't really put a dent in those profits, not even in Mesa's profit. Even a $10/flying hour rasie would not be unreasonable.

http://www.bts.gov/press_releases/20...bts043_07.html

yes!!!!!!!!!!

Major carriers outsource to regional carriers for one reason...it's cheaper for them to use us then their own operations. After you filter out the fact that now you have a second company paying a second CEO trying to earn a second profit off of flying that's being done second hand, you start to see the problem. We would all be better off if there was no such thing as a regional...but why just get your pilot group to fight itself when it's so much easier to get it to fight someone else?

The key, as anything in an capitalist market, will come down to offer and demand. The pilot shortage will bring higher pay. How much higher can the regionals afford to pay the pilots, I guess it depends how much money they can get for a ticket, and how much passengers are willing to pay for air travel. Offer and demand.

Of course they can....For example, if the regional can afford 15 Q400s and 16 CRJ 900s, and purchase another small regional, they can easily afford to pay their pilots better. In this business, and in most companies, pilots are just a utility like an electric bill - and managers simply want to reduce or minimize thier costs while maximizing productivity. I'd personally like to see the end of year bonuses of some of these managers who reap the benefits of the guys/gals at 'the tip of the spear' makin it happen...

You make an excellent point here. It is not, and never has been a question of whether or not a regional airline could "afford" to pay pilots more. The regional airlines all develop big-airline-like infrastructures and top-heavy management bureaucracies in the image of larger companies, which cost millions, but do not contribute a nickel to the company's profits.

Ultra-low pilot pay is factored into the operating model of the regional airline companies. They pay low because they can, and the problem with the whole commercial aviation game is that there is always ready supply of fools eager to jump in and work for a small fraction of what the job is worth. So in that way, supply and demand works to drive pilot pay lower, as long as the companies have no problem lining up the chumps to do the flying. They would operate without pilots if they could, and the day will probably arrive when they are able to do so. In the meantime, pilots primarily have themselves to blame for the economic degradation that they have experienced over the years.

This has always been the problem. But when we are pilots looking to get in somewhere what are we to do? Not accept any of these jobs until the rates go up? We are are own worst enemy. We want to do this so bad we'll do it for almost nothing and some of us really do do it for nothing. Bottom line is there will always be someone out there who will do it for less to be able to 'break in' and that will always hold us back as a group.

Here at SkyWest it seems that we can't fill EMB120 classes so a pay raise may be coming shortly. Just as you said, ''Supply and Demand.''

I thought it was coming because we're riding ASA's coattails.

Maybe it's because they're in the giving spirit.

It is Christmas time....

Ho Ho Ho...

I think they should, but think most regionals are afraid you'd jump ship in a few months for something better.

Only if the pay is better on the other side...hence the "great pilgrimage" from the likes of TSA, Mesa, and PNCL to SkyWest, XJet...

I'd be willing to bet the lateral moves from 9E stop if they are successful in negotiations and get a good contract...

Absolutely...and I'm confident they will! We're all rootin' for ya - make us proud :)

If we take a look at the cost of a FO, or heck even a CA on your 'typical' 50 seat regional airplane in the average middle of their pay scales. FO is approx. $40/hr and the CA is approx $70/hr. Divide that by seats = FO $0.80/seat and CA $1.40/seat with a total operating cost of $2.20/hr for the flight crew. If you look at the average ticket price the pax pay for that leg; imagine if the crew were to work for 100% pay cut? Would their ticke price go down? Maybe by $5.00... Maybe. If we were to take a 100% pay raise; how would that affect ticket prices? Granted airlines have gotten rid of pretzels (less than $0.10/pax) and pillows, and blankets, and food just to drive their bottom line lower.. ask yourself where does the money go? Look at your top heavy management? Look at the CEO, CFO, and all the other upper management pay/bonuses. Oh, and next time you are walking thru an airport with huge vaulted ceilings, marble countertops, plasma screen tv's at every gate, and enough lights to light up a small country... Think about who pays for that? In the big picture that ticket pays for the rampers, gate agents, bag handlers, reservation agents, most of the airport employees, some goes to ATC, some goes to pay the FAA, but the most of it goes to the FUEL in the tanks. Yes they can pay any individual group more. Yes the pilots can get huge pay increases and it won't effect the bottom line too much... But you get what you negotiate. You get what you CAN get... those managers who screw pilots out of pay are getting bonuses not only for putting pilots below the poverty income level... they are doing it to the rampers, gate agents, flight attendants, etc. too.
I agree that it is us who have cut our own throats.. the young "Shiny Jet Syndrome" pilot who says 'I dont care.. I would fly a 747 for free!'... but if you look at (aviation) university enrollment, if you look at the total number of pilots coming into the field vs. what hiring is going on and will be needed; we have an opportunity/necessity to raise pay to once again draw talented individuals away from other high paying jobs... Sure we all love to fly, but all it takes is an extra $15,000/year in pay and you can buy a light single and fly a whole bunch.
Negotiations (contract and other) need to be acomplished with a firm knowledge about what the scope, pay, and quality of life aspects have on the pilots thinking about near and long term consequences.
I would like to see APC publish the pay scales of airlines that have folded, PanAm, Braniff, Eastern... Look at the pay scales that United used to have pre 9/11... compare what companies USED to be able to make money with. Take inflation into acount and see where our beloved industry is compared to the 80's.
In my opinion YES they can pay us more. (long story for a short answer)

Also as a side note marginally related to this pay discussion: Look at how everything in your life has gone up except one thing... Auto gas has gone up, your electric bills have gone up, property taxes, soda, food, movies; basically everything in your day to day life has gone up (with inflation or not) drastically compared to 10 years ago.

Now look at your pay. The "dual income effect" has run it's course. Think back to when your parents got by with only 1 income. Now with the family units and their dual income just to live at the previously accepted standard of living; it is my opinion that things need to change. Pay needs to come into line with the reality of our curent world. The dollar is falling and ression is looming... Where will we be in another 10 years?

Your right, supply and demand is an important attribute of Capitalism. Unfortunately, supply and demand DOES NOT apply to pilot wages. Supply and demand applies to the flight time in which airlines hire. Look back through the history of the profession, wages vs. pilot supply, no relationship exists. Airline pilot pay has always been based upon what the unions could negoiate.

Having said that, if pilots come together and use their brains, a lot of leverage can be generated from the current situation.

What about us without a real union?

Uh oh. Not back here again...

When I was sitting on Santa's lap I told him I just wanted a contract for xmas. He told me his leg was asleep. I then told him it was just a glandular problem.:eek:



In all seriousness: mgmt is a "good ole boys" club of crooks.

Case in Point- hope you follow along...

A.)PNCL CEO Phil Trenary owns a part of the hotel in OKC (yes crews stay there)... Some of the following people own the other parts.
B.)The Ex-CEO of NWA is now running United Health Care (yes we now have benes through UHC)
C.) Uncle Phil and Doug (NWA CEO) go way back- Look where Doug was before NWA...
D.) After the union did not pass at colgan Buddy Casey gets put up top
E.) Buddy and Lorenzo have a track record....


Everybody knows everybody.... how ironic they are all crooks (and this is but a sliver of the pie that is the industry). Its late and I am delusionally tired- if thats even a comprehendable statement.

What you have very eloquently said is precisely the problem with the industry, from the pilot's point of view. Regional airline companies are depending on this to actualize their ultra-low-pay calculus. Obviously it's working. As a result, a sub-class of pilot has emerged who is willing to work for subsistence pay, in order to obtain the minor personal gratification of flying a low-end transport aircraft. Because the individual pilot wants this personal short-term gratification, he or she is not concerned about the deleterious effect that this will have on other pilots' market value or the future of the "profession" in the long term, because it is only the short-term effect that matters.

Pay at the FEEDER carriers will not increase substantially until all those involved, including management but mainly the pilots who have to fight for those wages come to grips with the fact that they should negotiate those wages as if they will be their payscale for the rest of their life instead of taking the attitude that the mediocre pay is ok because the average FEEDER pilot only stays there 3-5 years. The fact is more and more pilots are making the choice to stay at companies such as Eagle, RAH, XJET, Skywest etc, and make a career out of it. Then and only then will we see wages nearing what they should and work rules to match.

This is extremely well put and more people looking for the "right" job should consider it.

Currently I am considering a number of job possibilities and these thoughts have crossed my mind. A number of people I know are deciding to stick with the regional they started with due to seniority numbers (read: schedules, etc). Being from Minnesota I continue to think about Mesaba and Pinnacle, since a MSP base would be ideal (I like the area). Mesaba seems to be a place where one could remain and be happy in life. Pinnacle on the other hand doesn't have alot of the contractual benefits that Mesaba does but that may change in the near future. On the other hand, maybe I should take my 2500TT 70Multi and do what so many low timers are doing and take the first job I am offered just to get the time and move on......hmmmm. What to do :confused:

I don't want to contribute to the large number of people willing to work for poverty pay and poor quality of life...:mad: So, I guess I'll keep deliberating and reading others thoughts....

It's easy to say that someone shouldn't take a job for mediocre pay when you already have a job flying. When trying to build time, what's a person to do? It doesn't matter where you look in the industry (cargo, pax) all the starting jobs are low pay. So should pilots as a whole not ever take intro-level jobs due to low pay? Everyone here knows that's unrealistic. This is our career choice... we're not going to not take a job. Does the system need fixed? Sure it does. Pay needs to increase at the entry level. How is that accomplished? I don't know. But saying that folks shouldn't take low-level pay, entry-level jobs, is NOT the answer. This is a messed up industry, to say the least!

I'm becoming more like SkyHigh every day.

SkyHigh
 

The honest truth is that management is paid to make a profit ands not to be nice guys. So long as pilots continue to show up for the wages and working conditrions that are being offered they have no incentive to change.

Management on the other hand will walk unless they are getting a huge salary and someone out there must think they are worth it bacause they are getting paid more each day.

SkyHigh

I knew you were here somewhere.

But yes, you are correct. These are businesses, not charities. I feel somewhat locked in at the moment because flying is the only professional skill I have. I'm trying to change that. If I had known better, I probably would have majored in economics and gone into finance.

Wow
 

You remind me of myself ten years ago. When I started flying I imagined that pilots were respected professionals of the sky. Eventually I realised that we were nothing more than expendable tools of the company.

Once you discover that people outside of aviation are treated with more respect and value the end will be near for you.

Skyhigh

Unfortunetly it doesnt work that way. I know they probably didnt teach you this in ground school, but you are working under a contract. You cant just decide you want to quote "fight" for higher pay whenever you feel like it. Secondly wages arent everything they are made out to be. You shouldnt be fighting for higher pay, you should be fighting for better work rules. Ask any union guy outside this industry, and you will probably find out that he doesnt give a damn about pay, because he knows he will make it up in work rules. And finally its called a regional, not a feeder.

Sad......but true.

Question - I keep reading about the regional airlines wherein the management gets huge salaries and the pilots suffer because of it - does anyone have any hard numbers here? For example, what % of the total SkyWest payroll goes to the CEO and the CFO? It would be pretty powerful if it were in fact true that these guys are taking a substantial part of the profits of the company, rather than the actual folks doing the work...

No No
 

You got it backwards. Management gets paid the high wages because they make the pilots suffer. By lowering expenses management is rewarded.

Its our own fault for showing up for the wages and working conditions that they offer.

If managements wages were cut they would simply quit and find a better job. Pilots only complain.

If pilots want to make a better living then they should go to business school, get an MBA and then jump into the management shark tank. You will either emerge as a big fish or get eaten.

SkyHigh

Like Skyhigh said, management will up and quit if they aren't getting paid what they want. A manager has so many more career options than a pilot. He has nearly limitless branches and routes available on his career path with easy transferability of job skills. Us - not so much. As pilots, we want to fly. That's it - fly. So, we dig ourselves into a rut. We cannot fathom doing anything else but flying, so we don't quit. We can't just jump ship as the system is set up to screw you by doing so; you lose your seniority, pay, etc. A manager most likely keeps at least what he has, or improves, upon getting a new job, whereas we start at the bottom again. So we become angry and bitter, and take it. Eventually, the love of flying that was used against us is gone, but by then we are usually in too deep to start a new career path.

Being a pilot is such a specialized and narrowly focused job that our career options are severely limited. It's difficult to move from a professional pilot into another professional level job - but not so for most other prof. level jobs. They are seen as having desireable skills, but to the outside world, we don't have much in the form of skills that translate into their professions. They really don't understand what we do, and they are the ones making the decisions. Loving what you do can be severely crippling in this sense. Managers are usually relatively small in number, and are seen as valuable and critical assets, whereas we are just a number in the mass of labor, skilled labor, but with a steady stream of people willing to take the job for the pay being offered.

Anyway, I rambled, but the regionals certainly CAN afford to pay us more, but until they run out of applicants, they have no reason to. To love to fly and do it for a living is a very sharp double edged sword.