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Old 01-05-2008, 06:37 AM   #1  
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Lightbulb My perspective on Colgan's Growth

I have read a few times that I, as well as some others are "bitter" at Colgan, becuase of the quick upgrades and growth, well here is my perspective.

I worked there for a long enough time to learn a thing or two about how they run an airline. I am not sure if they run it the same way now as when I was there, but it is a swift kick in the testicles when an airline like Colgan, (low pay, no work rules, no union, no per diem on day trips, no easy way to trade/drop trips, outstation basing that seems to never work out when it comes to wanting a certain base. a management team that should be locked away for the B.S. they pulled to some people when I was there)................and what does this lead too????????????????? More airplanes and growth I don't know about you but to me that is something to be disgusted with. I like the guys I flew with over there and the SAAB was a great airplane, and I learned a lot. If you think some of us at Express are bitter, well look at it from our perspective, we have a management group that treats us with respect and pay/work rules that are among the top at the regional level. Movement is quick over at Colgan and you guys are expanding, but at what expense? You aren't getting the pay you guys deserve and whether or not you get a union in the next few months won't mean a thing, becuase the Q's are already on property and you already got the flying for CAL. Do you think Pinnacle/Colgan management are going to negotiate a good contract with your pilot group after you accepted low pay on the Q?


The problem I have is that the good airlines (regional) seem to get the shaft, meanwhile airlines like Colgan grow. I don't know why you guys can't figure out that nothing is ever going to improve if airlines like Colgan grow........

I know I know it is just a stepping stone to the majors.............well I got news for ya the more 80 seat airplanes there are flying around for CAL, whether its a prop or jet is less mainline airplanes which I hope you understand means less mainline jobs..............
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Old 01-05-2008, 06:57 AM   #2  
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Wow, nice rant Saab.

Nobody excepted those low Q rates. Most of CA's on them are check guys and guys who just wanted the type, when they leave there are not many line guys who will fly it for that pay. It is the pay why we are still 80 FOs short on the Q because the pay is bad.

I will not argue the pay can be better, it is a few bucks lower than other Saab carriers and maybe a union contract will help that. And I do believe we will have union rep next year, and I am not talking about the CPG which is just an attempt by mgt to please the pilots.

The thing is Saab, you need to decide what issue you are going to fight. Is it the low pay the guys are taking on the Q or that airplanes like the Q (70+ seat) are bad for regionals as a whole? Because you see if your issue is with the Q's capacity then the pay should not be an issue, the issue should be with all operators of 70+ seat aircraft which fly mainline routes. Go after every Q, 170, 175, 700, 900, and soon the 1000 operator out there because that is the real problem. It does not matter if a CA makes 56 on the Q or 66 on the 170...both planes are bad for regional pilots.

The Saab is one of the last planes that continue to fly true regional routes, or as you put it "flying to the same six airports." Colgan is keeping it a Regional, not a E-175 "regional" which has 4 day trips which start on the west coast and end on the east all the while flying mainline routes....that should be your issue...GET IT!!

Why is it you XJET guys have such issues with everyone and everything, that you are just so better than others. Do you really feel that CJC and CHQ are at fault for your airlines problems right now? The thing is you never hear any guy from CHQ, Comair, Piedmont, PSA, ASA, or anyone else have such a "holier than now" attitude that you are so much better that everyone else.

Really need to get over yourself.

Last edited by The Juice; 01-05-2008 at 07:14 AM.
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Old 01-05-2008, 07:25 AM   #3  
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Wow, nice rant Saab.

Nobody excepted those low Q rates. Most of CA's on them are check guys and guys who just wanted the type, when they leave there are not many line guys who will fly it for that pay. It is the pay why we are still 80 FOs short on the Q because the pay is bad.

I will not argue the pay can be better, it is a few bucks lower than other Saab carriers and maybe a union contract will help that. And I do believe we will have union rep next year, and I am not talking about the CPG which is just an attempt by mgt to please the pilots.

The thing is Saab, you need to decide what issue you are going to fight. Is it the low pay the guys are taking on the Q or that airplanes like the Q (70+ seat) are bad for regionals as a whole? Because you see if your issue is with the Q's capacity then the pay should not be an issue, the issue should be with all operators of 70+ seat aircraft which fly mainline routes. Go after every Q, 170, 175, 700, 900, and soon the 1000 operator out there because that is the real problem. It does not matter if a CA makes 56 on the Q or 66 on the 170...both planes are bad for regional pilots.

The Saab is one of the last planes that continue to fly true regional routes, or as you put it "flying to the same six airports." Colgan is keeping it a Regional, not a E-175 "regional" which has 4 day trips which start on the west coast and end on the east all the while flying mainline routes....that should be your issue...GET IT!!

Why is it you XJET guys have such issues with everyone and everything, that you are just so better than others. Do you really feel that CJC and CHQ are at fault for your airlines problems right now? The thing is you never hear any guy from CHQ, Comair, Piedmont, PSA, ASA, or anyone else have such a "holier than now" attitude that you are so much better that everyone else.

Really need to get over yourself.


Slightly uncalled for, again I wasn't bashing you personally, I don't think I am better then anyone, I do however think that CJC should strive to have the same type of contract that we have. I don't "blame" anyone for our loss of flying, besides it was never "our" flying. It is CAL's flying and they can do whatever they want.................
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Old 01-05-2008, 07:27 AM   #4  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SAABaroowski View Post
I have read a few times that I, as well as some others are "bitter" at Colgan, becuase of the quick upgrades and growth, well here is my perspective.

I worked there for a long enough time to learn a thing or two about how they run an airline. I am not sure if they run it the same way now as when I was there, but it is a swift kick in the testicles when an airline like Colgan, (low pay, no work rules, no union, no per diem on day trips, no easy way to trade/drop trips, outstation basing that seems to never work out when it comes to wanting a certain base. a management team that should be locked away for the B.S. they pulled to some people when I was there)................and what does this lead too????????????????? More airplanes and growth I don't know about you but to me that is something to be disgusted with. I like the guys I flew with over there and the SAAB was a great airplane, and I learned a lot. If you think some of us at Express are bitter, well look at it from our perspective, we have a management group that treats us with respect and pay/work rules that are among the top at the regional level. Movement is quick over at Colgan and you guys are expanding, but at what expense? You aren't getting the pay you guys deserve and whether or not you get a union in the next few months won't mean a thing, becuase the Q's are already on property and you already got the flying for CAL. Do you think Pinnacle/Colgan management are going to negotiate a good contract with your pilot group after you accepted low pay on the Q?


The problem I have is that the good airlines (regional) seem to get the shaft, meanwhile airlines like Colgan grow. I don't know why you guys can't figure out that nothing is ever going to improve if airlines like Colgan grow........

I know I know it is just a stepping stone to the majors.............well I got news for ya the more 80 seat airplanes there are flying around for CAL, whether its a prop or jet is less mainline airplanes which I hope you understand means less mainline jobs..............

Saab, I understand exactly how you're feeling. We are clearly getting the shaft, but the thing is...I don't really see any other great regional carriers getting shafted. Look at skywest, they continue to expand and get more airplanes, AWAC may not be growing right now but their contract lasts for quite awhile and USAir hasn't shown any signs of booting them. The thing is, it’s really just us that are in a bad spot right now. Its really nobodies fault (at our company); it just so happened that our main source of business decided one day that we were too expensive. So now we are in the spot we're in. I agree, it sux, but until we have the opportunity to bid for more flying with someone else, we have no where to go at the present time. Anyway, just wanted to let you know you're not the only one who feels this way. As a pilot group we have a whole lot of solutions for what we think needs to happen, but until we get out of the grasp of this CPA, our hands will remain tied.

btw, didn't mean to take away from what this thread is supposed to be about
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Old 01-05-2008, 07:29 AM   #5  
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my two cents:
been there, done that. until you can get 400 guys to walk off the job since everybody is hiring, the word union means nothing..or unity.
your right. in fact i know of a huge hedge fund investor in new york that owns over 100 million worth of pinnacle stock. Bought it before they bought colgan. wall streeters love the fact a turboprop with bus driver pay is going to give feed to CAL. he is on the web . his name is Monish Pabrai, an indian national. His hedge fund owns a crapload of pinnacle stock. he has made over a 100 million return already. i think he bought pinnalce at 2 and sold it at 28, then bought it back after a dip
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Old 01-05-2008, 07:47 AM   #6  
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FACT -- Mainline does not in most cases want to fly 70-100 aircraft, yes their are exceptions but very few.

FACT -- the size of mainline aircraft in general has been rising for DECADES

FACT -- the size of so called "regional/jet" carriers aircraft has been rising for at least 20 years

FACT -- EVERY small jet carrier out there... SKW, XJT, AWAC, RAH, AE, Horizon, ASA, COMAIR....whoever...they all have pilots on their respective senority lists that have NO intention of ever leaving their company and I suspect the number is higher than many would admit or care to believe.

THUS -- moving forward the small jet carriers pilot groups MUST take into account that wages moving forward need to attract pilots on a sustainable level. The thought can not be that small jet carriers are only a stepping stone to mainline type carriers, that is a disservice to those who choose to play at this level. On the other hand Mainline groups should not be giving away the farm. I see scope increasing at least one more "notch" over the next few years...certainly there will be a limit, but I dont think we have seen it yet.
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Old 01-05-2008, 07:52 AM   #7  
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I just don't understand these Colganites. Why would anyone want to work for them when everyone else is hiring? Their pay scales for the Q400 (which should be mainline equipment imho), are terrible... even shameful. Colgan, along with Mesa lowers the bar for everyone. I have several friends who flew there, and I've flow with a number of Colgan refugees here, and I don't think I've ever heard a positive thing about them.
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Old 01-05-2008, 08:12 AM   #8  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andym037 View Post
I just don't understand these Colganites. Why would anyone want to work for them when everyone else is hiring? Their pay scales for the Q400 (which should be mainline equipment imho), are terrible... even shameful. Colgan, along with Mesa lowers the bar for everyone. I have several friends who flew there, and I've flow with a number of Colgan refugees here, and I don't think I've ever heard a positive thing about them.

Notice everyone that comes on here akxing about colgan does so because we have a base where they want to be. That's kind of your answer, a lot of people are just unwilling to move out of their familiar region to get a better job somewhere else. But, this is ok, there is a certain value to being able to spend more time with your family in your own home. We've all said it before, Colgan works for some, and doesn't work for others.

I do agree that we need to be paid more. I am predicting that a union will be here next vote because we are aquiring alot of ex ALPA guys in our street captain program. Also because we lost by a few votes from people that were just too lazy to vote. A crappy excuse I know.
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Old 01-05-2008, 08:15 AM   #9  
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Notice everyone that comes on here akxing about colgan does so because we have a base where they want to be. That's kind of your answer, a lot of people are just unwilling to move out of their familiar region to get a better job somewhere else. But, this is ok, there is a certain value to being able to spend more time with your family in your own home. We've all said it before, Colgan works for some, and doesn't work for others.

I do agree that we need to be paid more. I am predicting that a union will be here next vote because we are aquiring alot of ex ALPA guys in our street captain program. Also because we lost by a few votes from people that were just too lazy to vote. A crappy excuse I know.
bro, all I I know is your signature is the greatest thing I have ever read hhaha. I was based in ALB & ABE, so neither were home for me..........
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Old 01-05-2008, 08:17 AM   #10  
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I'm a little out of the loop, but what will be the payscale for the Q?


BTW SAABaroowski shouldn't you be on vacation?

<--- Do I need to send her over to get you off the boards for a few hrs?
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