atpwannabe

Does anyone forsee that in the future the legacy airlines will turn to their regional partners to fill pilot slots i.e., Capt & FO on their larger a/c? Giving those who have come up through the ranks of "the company" so to speak, the right of first refusal on upgrade openings? Do you think that it is possible?

Also, does anyone see that there may come a time when going from a regional partner to a "parent" legacy will be seamless?

Most industries seem to follow the practice of promoting from within. In the case of the airline industry, would this be those who are on reserve?

fosters

What you are talking about is called a "flow through" agreement. It is signed by the parent company (legacy) and regional codeshare company. The only one outstanding to my knowledge is an agreement with American and American Eagle, and expires in 2012 I believe. Remember this is a double edged sword. When mainline furloughes 1000 people, they also "flow back" (if they desire) into the regional, displacing those junior regional pilots. I believe this is part of the reason Eagle has such a long upgrade, because all those mainline pilots were given captain slots in the jets (essentially stapled to the top of the senority list).

If the mainline management could have it there way, their company would simply be a "shell" and act like a broker and sub contract out ALL of the flying. IMO we are headed this direction. Less mainline a/c, more whipsawing "regional" codeshares that operate aircraft upwards of 90 seats and more soon enough. Wait till mesa gets its hands on some Airbi!

You don't get "promoted" as a pilot, you just get more senior. The most junior pilots at any airline are reserve pilots. Once there are enough people below them to take up all the reserve lines, then you are able to hold an actual line.

rickair7777

There used to be flow-through programs such as this in place, notably at CAL and AA, but they have fallen by the wayside for several reasons. Majors are eliminating their wholly-owned subsidiaries, and do not consider the subcontractor regional pilots to be IN ANY WAY associated with the parent company. They'd rather hire folks with a clean slate rather than people with expectations about entitlements such as vacation longevity, etc. Also with a flow-through they might have to hire a few real bottom feeders who never would have made it out of a turboprop otherwise.

HSLD

I think you hit the nail on the head there. Why would an airline opt into a system where they'll pay a new narrowbody FO 4-5 years wages when they can pay 1st year wages for guy off the street?

Feeder airlines are independent contractors the airlines they feed. The jets are painted in similar livery only to promote the brand to the traveling public. There is absolutely nothing in the this relationship that constitutes "coming up through the ranks" within a legacy carrier.

I know that sounds harsh, and I don't agree with it, but that's the way it is in the industry right now.

Browntail

Fact, legacy airlines will never do that because of the military factor. Guys coming out of the military are qualified to go directly to the mainline. Any legacy that does a program like you describe will not get any military pilots to fly there. They will not start out in RJs.

rickair7777

That's not true anymore. Plenty of squadron guys at regionals, even turboprops. The majors don't want that in house cuz ex-military guys are accustomed to a living wage, and they'd set a bad precedent demanding $50K/y starting as a 19 seat FO. Twenty year old "Academy Graduates" are much more maleable.. er.. amenable.

The mainline guys have GOT to get hold of their scope clauses, and bring most or all the regional flying under the mainline roof. The second class citizens are tired of eating cake, now they have 100 seat "RJs", and if Ornstein gets narrow bodies we're all ********d...

Punkpilot48

So is it safe to say that maybe the legacy airlines should just find a way to buy the regionals? Sure in the past the commuter airlines went into airports with airplanes that the majors prolly did not want to deal with right? Can the same be said with the 50~70~90 seat jets of today? Wouldnt it bring in money for the legacies since with the rj's they could compete with the low cost carriers? And it seem to me that it would make the pay scale for the RJ pilots a little better right?

rickair7777

In the 90's the majors all rushed out and bought up their independent commuter partners and operated them as wholly owned subsidiaries. Then in 2001 COMAIR did a nasty strike and got the BEST EVER regional pilot contract, spanking their new owner Delta in the process. Well THAT got everybodies attention...Post 9/11 the trend has been to unload wholly owned regionals and farm the business out to MULTIPLE sub-contractors so you're not vulnerable to a strike by one and you can play them off against each other.

Any consolidation of regional flying under mainline is not in the companies best interests and will HAVE to come from the unions via scope clauses. It is safe to say that many majors would like to sub out ALL their pilot jobs. Preferably to companies based in sub-saharan Africa.

Punkpilot48

ah ok now I see

Jared

Then there's also what goes on at my company... we are one of the remaining wholy-owned, and we have a program called Jets for Jobs. Basically, the main line guys that are furloghed are on a list, and in return for lifting the scope clause to allow the regional to fly 50 seat RJs, each listed pilot got an offer to come and work at the regional for much better than usual regional pay. Think of it as a flow back without a flow through. When they decided to fly -700s, the mainline guys lifted the scope only in return for slotted bidding. Basically what this means is that the company's seniority system is bypassed, and the number 2, 4, 6, 8, etc spots for lines each bid period go to these Jets for Jobs guys. So, if a captain was number 13 before the agreement, he now bids 26. But he is flying a jet, and getting paid more than he would have been to fly the prop.

None of the pilots that I know of can look back and think it was a good idea, either from the regional or from the mainline. The regional's management doesn't want the program to continue (due to high training costs due to turnover), and neither does the regional pilot group. The end result is a lot of squabling within the pilot group (among that infamous 10% that seems to be at every airline) between ex-mainline and regular employees, with people calling each other scabs.

From talking with guys that I fly with about the situation at their mainline company, the most junior guy who is working there was hired around 18 years ago. Think about that... in spite of 18 years of all the retirements, deaths, resignations, medicals, everything; it still hasn't kept up with the degree of downsizing that they have undergone. It will take quite a while just to recall the few people who do want to come back, much less start taking people who were hired within the past 10 years at a regional.