Crew rest
 

I think airlines have taken the very serious issue of crew rest way to casually. I have a few questions for you guys in the airline world:

I'm told that at most airlines rest begins ~15 minutes after you arrive. Depending on the situation, I'm sure it'll take longer than 15 minutes to get to a bed. Why doesn't the FAA insist that rest begins 15 minutes after you're checked in at the hotel? That sounds more realistic to me, and not at all unreasonable. If the FAA won't do it, why don't the pilots do it?

I've also heard that some airlines require you to live within (for example) 90 minutes of the airport. In this situation, do they give the courtesy of not starting their "crew rest timers" until 90 minutes after duty ends?

If my information is incorrect, please set me right, but I'm very concerned when I hear about pilots going to fly after "minimum rest".

You are released from duty 15 minutes after your arrival time. It doesn't matter if the van ride is a half hour or more (and they will be), rest begins as soon as you're released. A lot of the time I can't even make it outside of the airport in that time frame.

In theory, I like your idea of starting your rest at a hotel check-in, but there are way too many variables for that to work. You're putting the crew rest results in the hands of motel van drivers and desk workers. At some of the overnights the crews will talk the van driver into going through a drive-thru so we don't waste time on a reduced rest hunting for food. In one particular case, I have this 8:17 layover that we've run through the drive-thru a bunch, but if rest didn't begin until we checked in, they'd have to push our departure back the next day because we decided to hit up Taco Bell instead of going straight to bed. Not that I'd have a problem with getting more than the government-required minimum rest to be considered fit to fly.

Plus, what about locals, where you end up back in base and go to work the next day? Do you call in when you get home? I completely see where you're coming from, but I just don't see it being a feasible option.

I don't know of any airlines that require you to live any sort of timeframe from the airport, other than for reserve reporting purposes. Half the crews I fly with live in different time zones than the domicile.

You've got the general idea. For our airline, you are "released" 20 minutes after you "block in" (or when the aircraft comes to a stop). Per the contract "time spent in transportation local in nature is considered part of the rest period". Fair? Nope not at all, but it's industry standard. Last night the van didn't even show up until 45 minutes after we got in...but does that matter to the company? Nope. Minimum rest for less than 8 hrs of scheduled flight time is 9 hrs, which can be reduced to 8 as long as you get extended rest ("compensatory") then next "day". So, get in at 2100, released at 2120, the company can make you report the next day as early as 2120 + 800 = 0520. Generally the report times are scheduled 1 hr before departure and that's what time you'll get the hotel van. Sometimes, if they have to bump back a report time because you got in late the night before, they'll do that but still tell you they expect an "on time departure". Some guys don't care and will take their good ole time, others will still take the van an hour before, even though it is technically an illegal report, so they'll be ready for an on-time and not inconvenience pax. I could go on & on, but I think I'm just rambling now....


Sorry for all the " " ' s :)

Plus, Rickair makes the extremely important point be known that the FAA doesn't care what you do during rest, as long as it's not commercial flying. The pilot who has an 18-hour break in his/her duty day might work a 10-hour shift at another job, while someone who has minimum rest may have the sense to get straight to bed. I suppose you may a valid reason to worry about pilots who have minimum rest, but I wouldn't lose any sleep over it.

Too cheesy?

ok...one more....speaking of 'min rest', have you heard of cd's?

CD - continuous duty overnight.

Basically, you fly the last flight to an outstation, remain on duty overnight, and show up at the airport in time in the morning to operate the first flight back to base. So, rather than the company having to give you 8 hrs of rest, they keep you on duty overnight so that the morning flight will never be delayed due to crew rest. Eg - in at 2230, take the hotel van back to the airport at 450 for a 550 departure. Some people love um though because you're home during the day. Only problem I have is the people who bid for that reason and end up staying up all day as well to take care of family life. Somewhere in there, you can't be getting enough rest to be on your game all month...... Ok, rant over.

Actually, that definition is in the FARs. As far as still taking the same van for an unofficial early report, don't do it. Show up at the legal report time and take the delay. I gurantee you, if you go splat, they will drag your name through the mud since you flew without the required rest. The company will say they told you to report with proper rest. If its 5 minutes, it won't matter with the 30 minute van schedules anyway. Any longer and its not worth doing them a favor.

Yes, very true. I agree. It's like you said...the times when the van doesn't leave at your new time. Granted they're few, but the places that run um every 20 or 30 min are tricky.

You must be lucky. I have yet to stay at a hotel that didn't run vans on the 20 or 30 minute schedule to the airport. Going to the hotel is generally on demand, but at most places its a solid 45 minutes from block in to keys in hand for us.

Yeah? I'd say most of ours are on-demand or 15 min. Do you have the option of having the hotel pay for a taxi if the the pickup/departure time is delayed __ min long?

FAA doesn't care what you do during rest

They shouldn't, but they should care that we are actually able to rest. Obviously they can't force us to sleep, but we all need sleep at some time, and the regs should state that we get at least 8 hours with appropriate sleeping facilities.

Standing up waiting 45 minutes for an airport van is just unacceptable to me. At a bare minimum, the airline should determine the average time it takes the van to get you to the hotel at various times during the day, and use that to calculate when rest starts. Doesn't seem too complex to me.

they'll be ready for an on-time and not inconvenience pax

I'm not yet flying for a living, but when did passenger convenience supersede flight safety? I don't see myself doing that. If the NTSB finds out that you reported without enough rest, I doubt passenger convenience will be a good enough answer.

I don't know of any airlines that require you to live any sort of timeframe from the airport, other than for reserve reporting purposes.

How does reserve work then? Say you live in MIA, and you're base is JFK? Do you have to check in at the crew hotel the night before? Seems wasteful, especially if you don't get called.

I realize that posting on this forum won't change the FAR's, but I'd like to know why pilots have allowed themselves to be taken advantage of, with the obvious risks to flight safety? Maybe somebody will read this post and bring it up at the next ALPA meeting?

Its called a crash pad. Yes, its wasteful of your money if you don't get called. Thats why reserve sucks even more if you are a commuter. They company just says you must be available for a _ minute (generaly 90-120) callout. They don't care where you are, so long as you can report in that many minutes.

Welcome to this industry. Passenger safety is only the number one concern of the company after the accident. Until then, its ontime performance. Get used to being abused and do your best to leave your regional a better place for those that follow.

We do have a taxi policy. Its 30 minutes after block in. Unless the hotel says to get one, you need to get crew scheduling to approve it first then you have to pay for it out of pocket and expense it later. Most people wait. Its easier to call in fatigued the next day.

Your report time is based on reporting at the gate, not at the van. Remember the whole transportation local in nature thing? I got a phone call from a chief pilot over this one. Per our ops manual we are required to report at the gate no later than 30 min prior to departure. If you have ample rest, then take the normal van. If they delay your report for minimum rest to 30 min prior to departure, you are still required to be at the gate 30 min prior. Which means take the original van. Do I agree with this?? NOPE. But, it's in our ops manual at Comair.

they'll be ready for an on-time and not inconvenience pax

I'm not yet flying for a living, but when did passenger convenience supersede flight safety? I don't see myself doing that. If the NTSB finds out that you reported without enough rest, I doubt passenger convenience will be a good enough answer.

----I agree. I would NEVER fly if I thought I was too tired to handle an emergency situation that would require memory items / solutions that required 'thinking outside the box'. Fact is, airlines push on-time performance, and airlines push safety as well. I know at my airline, I've never felt pressure to fly if I wasn't ready to deal with anything that could happen. I've even started a trip with a deadhead, and had to call in when I got to the outstation where I was supposed to fly because I got light-headed and dizzy on the deadhead. I kept trying to tell myself I could get some water, and try to focus...b/c now we'd probably be stuck canceling at an outstation. Oh well, rather delayed / canceled then what could have happenned. Company didn't even ask questions, in fact the chief asked what they could do to help and if I wanted a hotel. But I digress.... It's one thing to stuck up an early wakeup and grab a large coffee for the first couple legs, it's another thing to fly fatigued. Call me odd, but I actually find the early morning van rides kind of nice...the crew is usually pretty quiet and it gives me time to wake up my mind by reviewing emergency memory items in my head to get focused. It's the little things....



I don't know of any airlines that require you to live any sort of timeframe from the airport, other than for reserve reporting purposes.

How does reserve work then? Say you live in MIA, and you're base is JFK? Do you have to check in at the crew hotel the night before? Seems wasteful, especially if you don't get called.

I realize that posting on tt=his forum won't change the FAR's, but I'd like to know why pilots have allowed themselves to be taken advantage of, with the obvious risks to flight safety? Maybe somebody will read this post and bring it up at the next ALPA meeting?[/quote]

------When you're on reserve, you are required to be within, say 90 minutes, of the airport. However, on your days off, you're off and don't have to be within reach. Also, the company is not going to pay for a hotel for you when you are on reserve...that's what crashpads are for.

I may take the original van, but you better believe I won't be at the gate more than 30 minutes prior. I'll be enjoying my coffee and breakfast/lunch/dinner first while I wake up.

Way back on IOE, I remember having a CA who wanted to get out on time. He was one of those early morning guys who was up & ready to go. We took the original van. When we got to the airport, he goes out to the plane, and I follow (seeing as how I didn't know any better at the time). Meanwhile, the FA stays in ops and shows up at the plane 15 min later, pulls me aside and goes "I can't believe you guys touched the plane before XX:XX". Glad I know better now!! :)

Its called a crash pad.

Enlighten my darkness. If you don't live where you're based, you have to rent an apartment at your base?:eek:

Tell me I'm wrong!?!

If you are on reserve, yup. If you have a line, depending on how commutable it is (late starts, early finishes), you may not need anything, get by with a hotel room or two, or have to have a crash pad. Again, welcome to the industry. There is a reason it is called a "base." The company wants to have a lot of pilots there without paying for hotel rooms.

Reserve commuting
 

How does reserve work then? Say you live in MIA, and you're base is JFK? Do you have to check in at the crew hotel the night before? Seems wasteful, especially if you don't get called.

I dont know of any airlines that pay for a hotel while your on reserve, its all on your dollar-if your a commuter on reserve you've gotta get a crash pad or pay for a hotel! Most of the time if your a commuter its alot cheaper to get a crash Pad=(Multiple crewmembers sharing a house or apt.)

Guess i was typing slow while the others were posting
Like the person above said thats just the buisness-Ive always been told by senior guys alway always if possible live in the city of your base and avoid commuting. Commuting=NO QOL Of course sometimes your base city sucks and its worth the money(for the hotel/CP) and time to commute.

No in the pax world, but plenty of ACMI's will do it.

Also, I thought I heard of FedEx having their pilots sit reserve in cities where there is a large operation but no pilot base. Like IND.

I like the idea also. One benefit you could bank on; The hotel van would ALWAYS be waiting there for you on a short overnight. The airlines would ACTUALLY make sure that the hotel was providing prompt pick ups as not to affect the rest time the next day.

UAL's pre 9/11 contract had a provision that their rest period didn't start till arrival at the hotel.

Yet another way the paper pushers put money ahead of safety.

What do you mean? The FAA has been helping in that regard way before the paper pushers at UAL.

I was too brief. The management gets this out of the contract, so the crews have less time to rest, and show up at the airport tired if they get stuck in traffic. The company saves a few bucks in per diem etc...

The company is NOT saving ANY money on per diem. They pay you by the hour for time away from base, regardless of how much time you spent in the hotel.

Well I suppose they're just screwing pilots out of their rest time then. I was of the opinion that they did that to save a buck SOMEWHERE. Maybe they do it just for fun now. Who knows?

They save money through stability of schedule. If they had to slide departures by 15-30 minutes to account for a slow hotel van, there would be missed connections and added cost. That is why we have the convoluted rest system in 121 as opposed to the hard 10 hours in 135. Its all about maintaining the schedule.

At FedEx we put people on "hotel standby" in any city we need coverage. Sometimes this is built right into the monthy lines. Sometimes crew scheduling will take a reserve pilot and build him a trip that is nothing more than a deadhead to the hotel and a week of availability periods, then a deadhead back to base.

Listen Skipper, I think you're getting your panties in a wad over nothing. Yes, some of the rest periods are short. Yes, with a min-rest overnight (8 hours) you are lucky to see a bed for 6 hours. But thats the nature of the beast. First of all, by basing the release time off of an "officially recorded" time ie the IN time, there is no question between the company, the hotel and the crew about when the rest period began. Are you ever sliding into bed 15 minutes after you block in? No. But like another poster mentioned, if you get in late, haven't had a chance to eat and the van driver takes you through a drive-thru, now you've added say 10 minutes to your travel time. If the rest period started at arrival at the hotel now you have the company, the hotel and the crew all pointing fingers about why it took 10 minutes longer to get to the hotel (and now departure is delayed 10 more minutes in the morning). Personally, I'd rather have the chance to eat than have the van driver say "well, the restaurant is closed, theres nothing within walking distance around the hotel but I've got to get you from airport to hotel in 12 minutes or else". Helloooo vending machine dinner...:rolleyes:

At my company (XJET), a timer starts at block in. If the hotel van has not picked you up within 30 minutes of block in then you walk over to the taxi stand and get a cab. I'm not sure of the contract between the hotel and the company but I believe it is on the hotel's dime (the way they protest when you tell them that, you'd believe it was coming out of the front desk person's pocket!:eek:). Sometimes, depending on the length of the line for a taxi, it's faster to wait for the van but sometimes at an outstation where the hotel is 10 minutes away theres no excuse for the van taking 30 minutes to get there. Personally, I give the hotel 2 calls for the van to get there (1st call: they tell me van will be there in X minutes, usually I'm still in the airplane deplaning or in the terminal walking out. 2nd call: after the time they told me has elapsed and no van, I call again. If they tell me it should be another X minutes and thats more than 30 minutes then its time to start thinking about a cab.)

Now, if any of this bothers you and you ever feel too tired to fly you have an ace in your back pocket - the F BOMB! You say the word "fatigued" to a scheduler or whoever is pressuring you to take a departure time and it will usually shut them up. If they keep pushing it, you just say "look, I'm banging in fatigued and I will be fatigued until XX:XX. Period" Not a lot they can do to argue with you and no one will make you fly if you call in fatigued. Now, if you make a habit of it, be prepared to deal with an employee assistance program or company referral to a medical professional for "chronic fatigue" but thats more a way for the company to irritate you in the name of making sure you're "healthy". I knew a guy who got referred to his employee assistance program for alcoholism because every time the company would call to junior man him he would tell them he couldn't take the flight because he had just had a beer...even if it was 7 in the morning:D (this was in the days before caller ID). I got a kick out of it but he didn't seem happy about it.

If these are realities you aren't prepared to deal with then you might want to reconsider your chosen profession or at the very least, find a company that takes crew rest very seriously.

As far as your question on reserve time and crash pads, consider it the cost of having the flexibility to live where ever you want in the country or the world and still do this job. I can't think of any other job that allows you that flexibility.

That's the FAA regulation - it's not a contract issue unless you can get your contract written to give you more rest.

I can understand taking a later van to get more rest at the hotel. But to stay in Ops just because of the pushed-back time? Way to go team-players...:rolleyes:

These rest-issues are just part of one of the best jobs there is. Don't be a muck-raker! You deal with certain less-than-desirable points of any job. You'll never be happy if you think of nothing but the low-points!

There are a few simple solutions to the late hotel bus on a reduced rest overnight.

1. Call scheduling when the bus is 30 minutes late.

2. Request a late show in the morning for crew rest since you will not be in bed with enough time to get the rest needed to perform your schedule tomorrow.

3. If they balk at your request - STAND FIRM. Usually scheduling will back off if you hold your ground. If they threaten to transfer your call to your chief pilot - so be it. If anyone continues to push you to take the assignment or otherwise balk at your request then suggest they send another crew to fly your trip and request you crew be released for normal rest.

4. If all else fails and you fear that your job may be in danger, simply excuse yourself from the conversation and go to the hotel. When you wake up the next morning you should decide if you're fit for duty or fatigued. If you are fatigued, call scheduling and go back to bed. If you're fit for duty then go to work. Keep in mind, your endurance will be greatly reduced and you'll be less likely to complete a full day of regional flying. You may need to use the "F word" (Fatigued) later in the day.

Don't do this to spite your company but do what you can to get the job done. I am only suggesting that you not take uneccesary risks in doing so. Do Not Fly Fatigued!!!

Well, Sport, what would you like us to do? I guess we could have an industry-wide strike against the FAA.

Didn't get to the hotel until an hour after blocking in? No problem, just fly at 320 KIAS below 10,000 feet!

Recently, a hotel I overnight in quite often has been pretty lax in having cookies ready for us at check-in. I'm a fat fatty, so this is an important issue to me. I think that next time this happens, I'm going to tell my FA to "forget" about briefing the passengers on seatbelt usage.