FAA Opens Investigation on Go! Airlines
 

Apparently the pilots of a go! (Mesa) CRJ-200 flight missed and island they were flying to in complete daylight. Air traffic control tried to contact them for 25 minutes. They suspect both pilots were asleep.

Seems pretty strange. I would have thought something like this to happen maybe at night... but not on a mid-morning flight. But I suppose maybe someone had a little too much fun the night before... :confused:

Anyone else hear anything? With enough publicity, no one in Hawaii will want to fly on go!

http://kgmb9.com/main/content/view/4199/40/

Once again, the media is speculating. Could have been that both were asleep or it could be as simple as missing a handoff and the center controller didn't catch it. Or they were forgotten about and never even given a handoff and went out of that controllers airspace (it happened to a FedEx DC-10 that flew almost halfway across the country out of ATC contact because a controller forgot to issue a handoff). Could be any number of explanations.

I know missed radio calls are something we've all experienced and it would take a few minutes before the flags start to raise and you realize that something is not right. I can remember one quiet morning coming up from Mexico, involved in a pretty engrossing conversation with the captain. We evidently missed a handoff and it went so far as dispatch having to send us an ACARS message that we were on the wrong frequency. By the time we got the message we had already realized that we missed something and were trying to figure out what frequency we were supposed to be on. Point is it takes a few minutes to suspect something is wrong and then a few more minutes to figure out what frequency you are supposed to be on. Moving at 8 miles a minute, you're looking at going 24-40 miles in the 3-5 minutes it takes you work it out. And thats assuming you catch the error right away.

I understand everyone wants to poke fun at Go! and Mesa in general, but lets not crucify our own based on pure speculation from the next-to-useless media.

En-route to Hilo, they would have been handed off to that sector they were in (126.0) from Lanai. If they missed a radio call or frequency, they got as far as 130 miles away from Lanai on a wrong frequency... and went past their destination without descending.

Oh, well, case closed then:rolleyes:

I love how quick some people are to "armchair quarterback" something like this and crucify one of our own. My point was that any number of things could have taken place and an aircraft or a controller missing a radio call is NOT uncommon. They obviously figured out something was wrong and handled the situation in a relatively timely fashion. Would you have rather they saw the airport out the side of the aircraft, just hung it all out and come screaming down from FL210? Sometimes the best course of action is no action, at least immediately. Just take a minute, figure out what you screwed up and fix it. So while it may appear that they weren't doing anything (so of course they must have been sleeping, especially since it's Mesa:rolleyes:) the crew may have, in fact, been working through the problem in a calm, collected fashion.

But I may be talking out of my ass since you are clearly privy to the CVR, ATC tapes and whatever other investigative materials are being evaluated.

Based on previous experience, sleep deprivation and overall exhaustion is routine in mesa operations. If it was just a missed handoff, they probably would have asked SOMEBODY for a descent before crossing the destination in the flight levels...or just executed lost comms procedures. If they were snoozing, it wouldn't be the first time by a long shot.

How could one be fatigued at 9am? Hmm, how about this:

Four day trip:
Day one show 1200, off at 2400
Day two show 1000, off at 2200 (on 10 hours rest)
Day 3 show time 0700, off at 1600 (on 9 hours rest)
Taday's show time 0400 (on 12 hours rest)
HOWEVER...
Day three is extended to 2100
today's show is pushed to 0500 (on 8 hours reduced rest which netted them 5-6 hours of sleep)

[QUOTE=freezingflyboy;323081]I can remember one quiet morning coming up from Mexico, involved in a pretty engrossing conversation with the captain. We evidently missed a handoff and it went so far as dispatch having to send us an ACARS message that we were on the wrong frequency. By the time we got the message we had already realized that we missed something and were trying to figure out what frequency we were supposed to be on. Point is it takes a few minutes to suspect something is wrong and then a few more minutes to figure out what frequency you are supposed to be on. Moving at 8 miles a minute, you're looking at going 24-40 miles in the 3-5 minutes it takes you work it out. And thats assuming you catch the error right away.

QUOTE]


You make a good point. A crew could lose situational awareness so badly that they forgot they were four miles high as they passed over the field without being asleep.

Sometimes people on this board can amaze me. You're all crucifying two of your fellow aviators based on one report from a local news station? Wow.:confused: Well forgive me for wanting to give them the benefit of the doubt when the only source most of us have is one wildly inaccurate local media story. Christ, I hope I never put my tie on wrong or forget to tie my shoe and it gets picked up by the local media and reported that I'm drunk:rolleyes: I can hear it now from the experts, "Well his shoe WAS untied. Pilots have procedures to follow if something like that happens. This individual was clearly drunk or distraught...either way, shouldn't be in an airplane and will have lots of explaining to do"

Freezing,

I agree with you in principle. People with access to the data will issue something after due process. Secondly, when it comes to aviation issues the media is like a clown parade. However, ...........

Are you employed by Mesa ? If so, is fatique a common occurence ?

If not, what would you do if you were at altitude AND AWAKE and about to overfly your destination airport ?

I know what I would do, but I'll sit on the sidelines for this.

FF

Use a little common sense... First off the FAA is investigating!!!!!

Second:
They were flying from island to island. They were in cruise flight and OVER FLEW their destination... You to think they missed a hand off?

Crucifying two aviators that continue to bring down this industry by working for one of the largest pilot hating management teams in the world.
That's reason for blame, in my book.

Quit supporting the bottom feeder.

You know that Mesa's work rules are rock bottom, so is scheduling.

Question: When the FMS is loaded the aircraft follows the flight plan. At the final fix you will get a flashing yellow "msg" on the PFD and the aircraft will fly its last heading??..

With all due respect
 

The regionals - really *commuter airlines are for time building so you can go to a major. If you want a career with a connector airline, Alaska has a very nice "regional". Mesa, AE, SKW and others aren't as different as one may think.

*Commuter (connector) schedule
ATL-GSP-GSP-ATL-MEM-ATL-LIT overnight
IAD-AUS-IAD-RIC overnight

Ahhh yeah. They are different. You can take it from me because I have worked for both Mesa and ExpressJet. ExpressJet treats their pilots 5x better, with higher earnings. We don't do crap schedules like the one you aforementioned.

It's not exactly 'time building' when you are flying a CRJ 900 with 90 souls on board from Phoenix - LAX in my book. 'Time building' takes place at flight schools, not airlines.

Alright..
 

If your team can dump the gas pig RJs and pick-up some 73s for point to point flying you may be a a potential career airline...who knows?

dude your attitude brings this industry down... you can hate on the criminal and his lackies till your hearts content but attackin friends that you probably used to fly with is BS... when you grow up youll realize that adults have responsabilities and quitting to go to expressjet might not be in ones best interest.

I hope the pilots get a fair shake given how they are scheduled, while FAA other than their "bought-and-paid-for" POI sets up camp at Mesa HQ and audits that place till it disintegrates.

Your the kind of guy who everyone hates to fly with. I can think of three just like you here at Mesa.

Negativity, and your die hard hate for Mesa may seem cool on here, or get you props from cfi's across the country, but for those of us who have a normal life outside of aviation, you're just plain annoying.

By the way, is there anyone at ExpressJet on these boards or that you have ever talked to, that knows you worked at and hate Mesa? Just curious.

I think I speak for many here when I say: Get a life, and relax.

Pretty safe to say that if you overfly your destination airport at FL210 in perfect VFR conditions and require your FA to bang on the cockpit door to get your attention, you're either sleeping or doing something untoward up there. If you work for a regional that only serves 5 airports that are all about a half-hour apart (go!), you hopefully will get to know the routes well enough to notice something like sailing past the ENTIRE ISLAND at 21000 feet.

Hopefully this becomes:

1. Bad publicity and another nail in the coffin for go!,
2. A really good argument in favor of revising duty-time regs, and
3. A flight-safety argument to be used in Mesa's next contract negotiation.

Good luck to the crew.

http://starbulletin.com/2008/02/20/news/story08.html

http://www.honoluluadvertiser.com/ap...802200422/1001

http://www.kitv.com/news/15347405/detail.html

http://kgmb9.com/main/content/view/4222/76/

Repost
 

This post has been modified from its original form. It has been edited for content and to run in the length of time allowed.

Two things:
1) Where are y'all getting this information from?! I read the article and my statements were based on the ONE media report about it. Unless y'all have new and more "official" sources I think you are reading a lot into it.

2) N2rotation: CHILL THE HECK OUT, over.
I am at ExpressJet too, friend. That doesn't give me OR you (or anyone else for that matter) the right to dump all over another pilot group, whether you agree with their management or not. Does their contract blow? Yes. Did ALPA negotiate that contract? Yes. Did you go there/work their with that terrible contract? More than likely. So before you strut around like your excrement doesn't stink I think you had better look in the mirror and remember where you come from. We're all in this together.

That said, I don't give a rip who works where for who, we as pilots should be the last one to join the torch and pitchfork mob anytime the media reports something "out of the ordinary" about an airline flight. We are our own worst enemy and you, my friend, do a great job of demonstrating that. Good on you.:rolleyes:

EDIT: Thanks for posting all those link 8Lpearlchannel. However, those are all media (local media at that) stories and are, in my opinion, unreliable AT BEST. You can all enjoy your armchair quarterbacking and lynching but I'll sit on the sidelines and reserve judgment until something official is released.

thats a bummer

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/A...925Z/PHNL/PHTO

Apparently the news got to the national level...

http://abcnews.go.com/Business/Busin...ory?id=4320215

The Honolulu Star Bulletin also reports the two pilots were suspended pending the investigation.

http://starbulletin.com/2008/02/21/b...s/story02.html

BTW, looking at the new updated radar track... if it is accurate, they did not overshoot the airport by 15 miles... thats 35 miles.

In 5 minutes they dropped 18,000 feet by looking at the track log from fight aware. SHuttle approach comes to mind.

Does no one monitor guard anymore? If they weren't sleeping (yeah right) the excuse for missing a handoff is invalid and could've been prevented. I don't know how they do things now, but back when I was at the regionals we were required to monitor guard or the local Airinc frequency on #2. Thing of the past?

--25 min with lack of communication isn't dealing with something in a calm, collected fashion.

--An aircraft missing controller calls for almost a half hour IS uncommon which is why the FAA is looking into it.

-- If it was radio communication failure then they should have followed AVEF and still landed with no issues. You don't go flying around for 25min without talking to anyone without squawking a code.

--If there was an emergency that they were dealing with for that length of time then the FAA should already know about it and not be investigating to see if they were sleeping or not. The FAA said they are investigating them sleeping. The reporters didn't just jump out there and make the accusation. So any belief that these guys were sleeping is well founded.

--Even if they forgot to switch frequencies or didn't hear ATC something should have popped into their mind when when looked out the window and saw the airport go by while still in cruise. Maybe they need acars to received messages when they aren't paying attention.:rolleyes:

Looking at the pictures of their flight track I'd guess they had everything programmed in except for the approach and when it passed it's last fix, the airport, it went into HDG mode. Of course I haven't flown on the CRJ but it seems logical.

Bah that's nothin!!

Standard descent in the CRJ200 is 3000fpm (.77/320). At idle thrust, max speed brakes, she'll give you 6000.. Comes in handy for those close encounters with crossing restrictions, and/or overflying your destination while exhausted/sleep deprived. :eek:

3600 fpm is hardly a shuttle approach.

freezingflyboy- I am on the same page as you. I agree with most everything you said. The point of most of my posts is to try to educate and steer people away from working at companies with anti-pilot management and bad contracts. My message just may come across differerently than others on here.

If this forum was around back when I went to Mesa, it may have steered me away from wasting time there. Sure, jetcareers was around but not a lot of people warned me about Mesa. Lesson learned, I just wanted to now not let guys make the Mesa mistake I did.

In other news, my post on this thread was in regards to the fact that they could have been fatigued due to Mesa work rules and scheduling. I can see it happening, I remember how tired I used to get from flip flop standup overnights.

If I have swayed more than 1 guy away from Mesa (which I have) then I feel I have helped the industry.

And yes I will try to chill a bit more, but send the same message. Thanks. Fly safe.

Usually the ARINC(SELCAL) or ops freq is in #2 for Mesa.

The captain was Junior Assigned to fly this from BNA:rolleyes:

I bet he got in the night before and was on reduced rest.
Fortunately, former and current pilots are getting the media to look into scheduling.
However, since there were no casualties, I doubt the FAA will take action against MAG management, just the pilots...a shame. :(

Here is an anonymous email I received:

================================================== ======\

Kind of strange that Mesa is exempt from monitoring VHF Guard

All aircraft operating in U.S. airspace are
required to maintain a listening watch on
frequency 121.5.(FDC NOTAM 4/4386)

For RAH we use Atlanta Radio. So I guess Mesa isn't the only one.

Missing a handoff while flying over the airport you are supposed to land at... how bout you just dial up tower and get your clearance from FL210

Don't know exactly what in my post you were pointing at but you can't just vacate FL210 without clearance to do so. You aren't VFR at 210 regardless of how crystal clear it is out there.

I was saying that if they did have communication failure then they should have done AVEF (assigned, vectored, expected, filed) while squawking 7600 then flying the full procedure into the airport. These guys obviously had zero situational awareness or they should have known 70+miles back they should have started descending(hinting they were asleep). They didn't, they didnt realize they passed the airport which I'm sure would have been easily visible on the FMS not to mention they are passing an island in the Pacific. It's not like you're over west Texas where the next 100 miles look just like the 100 miles behind you so it's easy to get confused. Center would still have tried to contact them on their old freq. as well.

Same with XJT.

Airline suspends pilots who overshot Hawaii airport
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/htm...gpilots22.html

Typical Mesa fashion, throwing their employees under the bus, two at a time.