Mesa pilots both asleep, allegedly
 

I wonder if this has anything to do with their industry low work rules and rock bottom scheduling, 8 days off a month.

http://www.bizjournals.com/phoenix/s...8/daily15.html

Jonathan Ornstein, chairman and CEO of Mesa Air Group (Nasdaq:MESA), in Phoenix, told Pacific Business News Tuesday: "At this point, it is under investigation by Mesa, and until that investigation is complete and we have a better understanding of what happened, we can't comment."

Between the lines:
"Until we start treating our pilots right, this stuff will probably keep happening, but as long as we dont have a crash, we will keep putting money first, pilots last."

I'm not a Mesa pilot, but it could happen and it does happen at other airlines.

I hope it was a highspeed/CDO/standup, to outline the problem... but even if it was, I expect no rule changes to come from the FAA

I always brief my F/O, "I better not wake up and catch you sleeping!" This is obviously the captain's fault for not giving a thorough brief...:D

Haha, that's an important brief!

not the first time this has happened. Didn't it happen to mainline a few years back, keep thinking it was a united flight, that somehow ended up over the pacific after passing up LAX or SFO....

An airbus did it in Denver less than a year ago, I think. I know it happened, but can't remember the date.

It was either United or Frontier in a bus.

They woke up to ATC yelling at them b/c they reached DEN and the FMS was flying circles over the last fix in the box.

FWIW, Frontier does a fair amount of stand ups, as does SKW. We all do the damn things.

Just because it *can* happen or *has* happened at any airline doesn't mean it's "OK". A private student overflying his destination on his first solo XC? No big deal. TWO "professional" pilots overflying their destination on a Part 121 flight with passengers on board?!? BIG deal!!!

I just can't imagine anyone trying to justify that happening like it's not that big of a deal... ***...

I don't know how Frontier handles a stand up, but at SKW, we don't actually "stand up", but instead go to the hotel for a few hours of nappy time.

What about Mesa? My understanding is that they don't get a hotel, and are left to "resting" in the plane.

Frontier's standups also involve hotel time. Some are actually really nice standups, for example ABQ and OMA, pilots get paid 6Hrs for 2Hrs of flying, 7 hours in a hotel bed, and back in DEN early next morning. Not for everyone though... as several in a row can certainly lead to fatigue.

At Mesa.... well, let's just say that pilots and flight attendants become experts at making beds out of passenger seats. I even recall, some time ago, a Mesa crew (2 pilots, 2 FA's) on a red-eye/standup combo schedule (red-eye flight to YVR, sit for 3 hours, then fly back), having to sleep on the floor of the baggage claim area in Vancouver (they were not allowed to stay on the plane and sleep because of it being an international flight). Just the kind of thing that helps our profession: passengers seeing a crew, in uniform, sleeping on the floor with plane blankets and pillows... :(

That would be my last night of work at that airline.

We have decent CDOs at Mesaba--always get a hotel and sometimes even 5 full hours of sleep. Doing 4 in a row is a little tiring though and I don't know how people do it who don't go back to sleep when they get home.

I think you might be referring to this incident.. The report came out a year ago on the news but the incident occurred in March 2004.
http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news...68/detail.html
FWIW the airbus box on a 320 series won't fly circles around the last point unless the box was programmed to do so by a database arrival procedure.

Normally, the aircraft would fly into a discontinuity at the "end" of the flight plan and continue on present heading indefinitely

Yep...like our RJ's - "Roll MODE" - theyd' just keep going and going and going...

After all of the publicity, we got hotels and still do.

I fly one tomorrow night. We arrive at 10:30 and leave the next morning at 6:15. Pretty do-able, unless your a b****.

It was a nice attempt to inform the uninformed why they should dislike Mesa. In the spirit of brotherhood, here are some suggestions to keep this anti-Mesa thread alive:

1) Our contract.
2) The name, Mesa.
3) JO.
4) N2, and how awesome he is now that he left Mesa.

Sounds like the Frontier stand ups are "really nice;" so nice that you dream your in the middle of the "7 hours in bed," when in fact your cruising through the STAR in DEN at FL350.

http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news...68/detail.html

Or wait, was that before the stand ups were so nice?

Funny, b/c that story you told about Mesa stand ups was before things changed (for the better) as well.

Again, a beautiful attempt, but no dice.

Paxhauler,

If you read carefully, I stated that some standups are nice. Some can be brutal when done several nights in a row. There's guys/gals who can, and guys/gals who can't do it. Some pilots will even do it with no sleep when they are home, which is difficult for most. And you are absolutely right, F9 had some scheduling rules before that were changed when evidence of fatigue started to make itself clear. The schedules were changed though and that speaks to the intention of management to improve safety...

Anyway, I did not intend to offend you or any pilot of Mesa. Having once flown there, I am actually very grateful for all the opportunities it provided me and for a great several years of flying. I flew with many, many great guys/gals and had a great time. However, I do remember the scheduling that took place. I still have friends flying there who keep me up to date as to what is taking place, which in many cases is down right criminal, particularly for reserves. The problem at Mesa, is that even though there are some serious concerns about scheduling, that have existed for YEARS now, there are no changes made... I would not be saying any of this had I not personally experienced it. I don't think you should attempt to compare Mesa's scheduling system to Frontier's or any other "major" for that matter... unless you've experienced both. It is night and day difference.

I wish you the best and to everyone at Mesa and all our sister airlines. What affects you, at some point will affect me, and viceversa. With all that said, perspective is important. You have a great job, you get to fly modern jet aircraft for a living, and the contract might have some great improvements in the near future. Good luck and don't take it personally.

paxhauler, do you suffer from Mesa pride. Do you think that the grass is not greener? Are you in JO's fan club?

Just wait until you go to a major some day, then you will realize that you shouldn't have been treated how you are at Mesa.

You think that's bad, I used to know a guy who, on a sunny day, would take a nap in the grass outside the Greenville, Miss airport.;)

Not unless one of these planes crashes, and a senators son happens to be on board

Mesa standups?
 

I ran into a PHX mesa crew on a hotel van this week. I knew the CA, and he said they were getting rid of the LAS plywood-board camping trip standups. Any truth to this?

I am a new hire with Mesa. This seems to be the subject of conversation on the flight attendant forums as well. Please help me understand this better as I am new but I thought it was a requirement that the crew had to have a resting period of 8 hours on a RON.?

If the crew is released from duty, yes they are required 8 hours of rest. What is being referred to here is a continuous duty overnight. Usually when the crew will work one of the last flights in and take one of the first flights out in the morning. If it's considered one entire duty period then no rest is required. The maximum duty period is still limited to 16 hours, so basically it's all one duty period with a multi-hour break in the middle.

I'm never able to answer these first.

Fire away my friend. I'm sure someone can explain it better than me.

your rest is during the day when all sane people are at work :)

Thanks guys. This rinfo helps. Im getting prepared as I leave for Phoenix Oct. 6th for training. So, basically, I just need to stay out all night and sleep during the day to prepare myself! Are there any Mesa pilots on this thread? Just curious as to their experience with this situation.

spelling correction....info not rinfo. :)

Sky Angel
Are you one of the 49 pilots that got furloughed?

t207
No, I am a future FA with Mesa. Leave for training in PHX Oct. 6th, but I read the threads on here all the time as aviation is my passion and I soak my brain with as much jetfuel as I can get. Im an aviation nerd! Trust me, these threads are 10 times more helpful than the Indeed FA forum for Mesa.

That's your biggest mistake right there. Taking advice from anonymous internet know-it-alls, disgruntled furloughs and soon-to-be, hotshot pilots, and the "my regional is better than your's" types.:eek: ;)

Hey I resemble that remark!

Haha. You are so right.;) Missed one though. There is even a "Displaced Legal Professional" on the forum.

OMG you couldn't be anymore right!:eek:

Looks like they got fired...from cnn.com




Pilots complete suspensions for sleeping on flight


Pilots complete suspensions for sleeping on flight - CNN.com

9/24/08
HONOLULU, Hawaii (AP) -- Two pilots for Hawaii's Go airlines who slept through their flight's landing procedure were suspended for the careless and reckless operation of an aircraft, the Federal Aviation Administration said Tuesday.
The pilots, who have been fired by Go, completed their suspensions on September 9, FAA spokesman Ian Gregor said. He did not know whether they are flying again with a different carrier.
Captain Scott Oltman, 54, who was also cited for failing to maintain radio communications, had his license suspended for 60 days. First Officer Dillon Shepley, 24, was suspended for 45 days.
Gregor said no action was taken against Go because it did nothing wrong and provided the pilots with a 15-hour break before their shift, nearly double what the FAA requires.
The National Transportation Safety Board had determined the two pilots fell asleep on the February 13 flight from Honolulu to Hilo.
Oltman was later diagnosed with a severe obstructive sleep apnea. It causes people to stop breathing repeatedly, preventing a re****l night of sleep.
However, it was still unclear how both pilots fell asleep on the brief midmorning flight, which was carrying 40 passengers.
No problems were found after examining the aircraft's pressurization system and carbon monoxide levels.
The pilots failed to respond to nearly a dozen calls from air traffic controllers over a span of 17 minutes.
In recordings obtained by The Associated Press, the controller is heard repeatedly trying to contact the pilots and talks to the pilot of another Go flight in hopes of reaching Flight 1002.
"I'm worried he might be in an emergency situation," the controller says.
Finally, about 44 minutes into what is usually a 45-minute flight, the controller was able to establish radio contact. By that time, the plane had passed the airport at Hilo by 15 miles, and the controller ordered the flight crew to return.
The pilots were able to reverse course and landed safely at Hilo International Airport.
Go is an inter-island carrier run by Phoenix-based Mesa Air Group Inc. It declined to comment on the suspensions.

I knew Scott from my days at ZV many moons ago. I remember him being a decent guy. Too bad this had to happen...