30 in 7 Question
 

I'm just getting starting in this crazy world of commercial flying, and I have a question that's confusing me. I've been told 2 different things about calculating 30 in 7, 100/month etc. One person told me these are calculated on gate to gate block times (out/in), and another said they were calculated on flight time only (off/on). Now looking at the crew cards my company issues, the scheduled gate to gate block times are listed but there is no scheduled flight time. So at the beginning of the day, when I'm checking to see if I'm going to be 30 in 7 legal at the end of the day, the scheduled gate to gate block is the only number available to reference. There is no scheduled on/off flight time... that number only appears on the pay report after the flight is completed. So it seems to me my first source must be correct saying that gate to gate block is how 30 in 7 is calculated, because there is no on/off flight time number at the beginning of the day to use for this calcuation. Am I understanding this correctly?

Yes you are. According to the FAA, flight time (what's in your logbook) is when you move under your own power and it results in flight, which is block time (out/in). Therefore that is controlling.

My understanding is that 30/7 is calculated based on OUT to IN time. Taxi time with the intention of taking flight is considered flight time.

Almost. Flight time also includes anytime you move an aircraft with the intention of flying, whether you actually takeoff or not. Regardless, block to block time is the one you want.

Yes, that is what I meant, just poor wording. Thanks for the correction.

out to in.....

Cool. Thanks for the confirmation there guys. Keep the painted side up... see you out there.

Not intending to give you a hard time, but what airline do you work for? It seems their training is pretty lacking if they didn't explain 121 duty time fundamentals. I'm also wondering what pilot told you it was flight time...I hope he wasn't an airline type?

That is not necessarily true. According to 14 CFR 1.1:

Flight time means:
(1) Pilot time that commences when an aircraft moves under its own
power for the purpose of flight and ends when the aircraft comes to rest
after landing

Therefore, you can't log the time if you didn't take off.

PoK :cool:

Not the clearest language, but the intent is that taxi with the intent to fly is flight time...even if you don't actually fly.

Would I log it 91? No, probably not.

But in 121 you had better log it because it counts towards your daily limit...that's just the way the FAA rolls with that one.

There's been some debate on that point. I'm trying to find the FAA interpretation I read awhile back...but it basically said if you return to the gate and don't fly, you're taxi time doesn't count for squat.

Edit: It wasn't an FAA interpretation, but an ALPA one. Take that for what it's worth. Personally, I'm of the belief that the taxi time DOES count, but ALPA must be getting their interpretation from somewhere.

http://cf.alpa.org/internet/projects...ftdtguide.html

Interesting. My company computer system tracks it towards your limits, which is the safe thing to do I suppose.

If I start a taxi with the intention to take off - regardless of if my wheels actually leave the pavement - I log it, get paid for it, and count it towards flight time limitations.

what exactly is not clear about it?!?! its black and white! you dont log and it doesn't count towards flight time limits unless you takeoff. i swear some people either dont comprehend very well or just choose to look too deep into things. i dont get it.

I think YOU are the one who is daft.:eek:

That interpretation (and the one that I am most familiar with and the one that I believe the FAA most commonly references) says that FLIGHT TIME is any time from when the aircraft moves under its own power with the intention of flight. So as soon as you fire up an engine and start rolling on your own power for the purpose of going flying, that is FLIGHT TIME. If you gate return, all that taxi time is STILL considered flight time because the intent to go flying was there.

If we follow your train of logic which states that taxi time is NOT considered flight time, you could fly for 6 hours and end up in JFK. Then taxi for 3 hours before the flight is canceled and you return to the gate. Then the company could LEGALLY reassign you to another 2 hour flight for a grand total in the cockpit, moving around with pax on the plane of 11 hours? I don't think so bub.

I guess some of you guys stop logging flight time after you land and have to hold short of the parallel, eh? After all, that would be when the aircraft "comes to rest after landing." :rolleyes:

It's not black and white at all.

This part is clear: "Pilot time that commences when an aircraft moves under its own power for the purpose of flight"

This part is not: "and ends when the aircraft comes to rest
after landing"

I think we all agree on when flight time starts.

But when does it end? Not clear at all...When you get to the gate? What about when you come to rest after taxiing clear but still waiting for taxi clearance? If you read the reg verbatim that's what it says... :rolleyes:

The reg doesn't even cleary identify when flight time ends for a normal flight, much less a return-to-gate. In a return-to-gate the reg seems to give us a start time, but no ending.

The way you deal with FAR's like this is by going with the historical precedent, hopefully defined by something in writing from the FAA. In criminal law you could drive an A380 through a loophole this big....but in Admin Law ambiguities are almost always resolved in favor of whatever the agency in question desires. Many pilots have found this out the hard way by challenging FAR interpretation in front of the NTSB.