Will pilot pay EVER go back up?
 

I know this has been discussed time and time again, but I don't know if people have looked at it in this light. I was on APC and looked at some new startup airlines' pay scales. In particular, Virgin America, scumbus and Lynx. All pay scales are pathetic, yet I assume that none are having trouble getting pilots. Since the ALPA vote was shot down at SkyWest, I haven't heard too much union stuff on here lately. Are there any companies out there that have any hope of raising pay back up?

I saw Alaska is in negotiations. What about RAH, TSA, Pinnacle and whoever else is in negotiations? I assume with the economy, gas, etc. not much will get accomplished. Does anyone have any good news?

No good news at this point, but I am optimistic about the opportunity to turn things around. Hopefully with a new administration, whether or not I agree with their policies as a whole, we will be able to regain the ground lost over this last decade. The ability to strike is crucial if we want to turn things around. I also think if pilots were to adopt the mantra "a pilot costs what a pilot costs, just like oil costs what oil costs" we'll all be better off. I'm not sure who originally stated that on these message boards, but they could not be more right. I feel it's time to take a stand, or this profession may slide further into mediocrity.


Side note: if skybus offers point to point service between major city pairs to the wife beater and torn jeans community, why doesn't delta and other legacies differentiate themselves by offering luxury travel to businessmen through an EOS style business plan. For example offer larger and more comfortable seats and better service for travelers. They could also differentiate themselves by continuing to offer a large network of destinations. Let the burger kings of the airline industry be the burger kings and let those who are able to offer premium service offer premium service. People will pay for the better service, comfort, and flexibility. I have spoken to several business travelers, while commuting that have expressed displeasure with the level of service offered to them by legacies on domestic flights (I have not heard too many complaints about international travel, though some travelers preferred the destination country's nationalized airline's perks compared to the cost saving service of the US carriers). I feel a legacy competing head to head with a LCC will always lose due to higher labor costs, but if the legacies decide to differentiate themselves from the competition by offering a different product they have an excellent chance to succeed. Then again I have no business experience or expertise, so it is probably safe to assume I'm way off. I also enjoy hearing how completely clueless I am so fire away.

Pay
 

Pay will go up eventually, but only after negotiations have dragged out for years and inflation has turned the raise into a cut.

SkyHigh

well said .. :D

Not until reregulation .you want a raise then start pushing for it .

Ask any ASA Pilot, it already has.

My pay went up approx. 35% with our new contract. My pay has ALWAYS gone up and I'm made over $160,000 last year as a sixth year F/O.

Oil is $100/barrel, while pilots cost a dime a dozen to be exact

Based on free market economics, as long as the industry is willing to hire pilots for low wages (presumably willing to accept lower quality pilots), and the pilots are willing to work for those wages, then the airlines have no incentive to raise airline pilot pay. If the customer demands higher paid pilots, or there exists a shortage in pilots willing to work for the low wages, then the industry will have to figure out a way to pay more for quality pilots.

I hear everybody complaining about wages here, but have you heard of any airline, including the lowest paying ones, having trouble getting guys in the seats? I'm no expert, but I haven't heard of any issues with getting guys in. I haven't really even heard of them having trouble keeping guys there after they get there.

Am I wrong?

Yes, you are somewhat. Mesa is still losing 100 pilots a month so retention isn't happening there.

Everyone in this industry deserves a raise, however, airlines very soon will be posting significant losses once again. It's a tragedy because pilots represent the very best in skilled labor, not to mention the high level of responsibility that comes w/ the job. Pilots have worked hard to keep this industry going strong. With that said and based on the assumption that the economy is just great and oil goes back down to $40/bbl like so many folks think will happen, then maybe we all stand a chance of getting raises. My gut feeling is that oil ain't coming back down (at least significantly) and the economy has not yet bottomed out yet. The whole Bear Stearns development should serve as a real wake up call to all of us re: just how quickly things can change. No one saw it coming.

Pilots, unfortunately, should probably be more concerned about preserving current pay and jobs. If we go for big raises, we'll definitely put our more junior pilots out of work and on the steet at a time when jobs will be more scarce in this country.

move to europe!!! eurotriiiiiiiip

NO. Why would it? I mean, when most of the people on this forum think that they make enough money anyway. In previous posts, whenever I raised the subject of substandard pay I was met with ridicule and criticism. Comments like "if you don't like the the pay then get out!" Maybe in Europe it will because Europeans have stronger labor unions and are people overall are less acceptant of big corporations taking their pay away and passing the savings to the CEO's, but in The United States it will only go down even further. Pilots think that getting paid in peanuts is ok and the management is not going to force a pay raise...

It is a culture thing too. People in Europe don't put up with the greed of management like they do here. American's have a high tolerance for abuse and that is just the way corporate america like it.
First year at British Airways you get 6 week vacation. 14 days off a month and everybody on property will sit reserve 1 month a year.
US Airways the first year guy gets 1 week vacation. Hey even the 7th year one too. 10 days off and endless reserve in Philly.

Enough is enough. We need to be spending our Alpa money on professional negotiators with the sole purpose of making our lives worth living. We need to scrap the Railway Labor Act and make an Airline Labor Act.
It might take 10 years but it will be well worth it.

Pilot pay has gone up everywhere but here over the last 10 years. It's just the American way to pay less for something by "downsizing" the higher paid labor for new cheaper labor at the bottom or outsourcing.

All industries have faced this. Good experienced labor get downsized or offered retirement so they can get new cheaper blood in the system.

just typical american fashion...

Another side note, i don't think that simply offering "luxury" business aircraft at a premium price would net much of a gain in this market. If you could corner the market, get agreements with businesses off the bat, and guarantee that these groups would continue to use your product, maybe.....but the american public will typically just complain about service, and then request the cheapest ticket, and if you can't have both, then they'll just complain about both, but still, buy the cheap fair....

If you could say "airline A" will offer ontime performance always, great seats, good meals, and the best in amenities, while "airline B" will offer to get you and your family to cabo for $100 bux a piece, most will just choose airline b.......sad but true.

Safeeye, Let me add 3 points:

1. ALPA has professional negotiatiors and a staff of Experts and they don't cost you a dime extra. Maybe your personal MEC didn't or doesn't utilize them properly, but if you are ALPA you have them at your disposal.

2. Changing the RLA isn't the real issue, it is having an Administration who allows true bargining to occur under the RLA (or NLRB if you prefer).

3. Even if you have both of the above under the best of circumstances, you (we) won't get squat unless your Pilot group is 100% behind your negotiaitors and leadership. If the line Pilots aren't willing to "walk the walk" (after all the talk at the table) and most importantly to Stand as "ONE" behind your negotiating committee, you will only get what MGT offers you, which is usually table scraps.

Tough to "walk the walk" when you have gojet pilots doing what they did when the waterskiers were attempting to negotiate.

When John Prater was elected, everyone was all gung ho about the changes HE was supposed to bring. I was hoping to hear some good news regarding negotiations, but it seems as if no one is getting anywhere. However, I do appreciate everyone's thoughts and comments regarding the issue. I hope things will change. But, it seems as long as pilots will continue to fly for the wages that these companies are offering, we don't have much of a leg to stand on.

This is usually where someone jumps in and tells us regional pilots how we are selling out the industry...

I'd accept that if Mesa pilots were the only ones complaining, but everybody is moaning. From the bottom feeder airlines to the "legacy" carriers. I think pilots are too passive. We want more money, we need to go get it. I think there have been enough talks with management at all the airlines. It's time for some action.

Pilots don't have to strike either. We're the ones that fly the planes. If we want, we can make a given flight cost more. Why not say to management, "you've been turning profit and keeping it for yourselves. If we don't get a piece of the pie, next month's fuel bill will be up by 5%"


Don't you think they'd have to sit up and pay attention. I don't fly professionally yet, so I'd like to hear what the pros think about it.

I was researching the 1st yr FO pay and for all those who knock Gojet pilots,
1st yr Gojet FO's are getting paid the most out of all the regionals. Maybe that's why some don't like them......they make more than you!

Yep. Thats exactly why.

Are you kidding me? Quit trolling this thread. Second, they are not the highest paying regional. Give me a break.

They can use the extra dollar an hour to buy friends, as that's what they'll be losing when working for gojet...:rolleyes:

Come to think about it...he's right!!


atp

Ignorance is bliss and stupidity lasts forever.

Are you even a 121 pilot? Your comment tells all us that you are not seeing you obviously have no clue how our pay is structured.

As harsh as this may sound I mean you no personal offense but your ignorance on the subject needs to be corrected. There are many things that make up our pay and an hourly rate is only about 25% of it. Also a pay rate won't make up for the lack of respect you'll get, from the industry, for being employed by an "alter-ego" airline that shafted the TSA pilot group. Sadly, GoJetr’s better have a seat in the back because they’re not welcome in my jumpseat and they are the only pilot group that I will deny the actual too. Everyone else is more than welcome and I look forward to giving you a ride.

And BTW, first year only lasts one year but going to GoJet is a mistake that will last the rest of your life.

If that's case, it's because that is the only way they can get people to consider working for them.

I can tell you EXACTLY why people don't like them, and it's not related to first year pay.

Where's that, NetJets? :rolleyes:

working for "the man"
 

We're worth what we're willing to work for... bottom line. If we accept garbage wages, then that's what we'll get, i.e. if a pilot is willing to work for $20 an hour, then that's what their time is worth to them. Unfortunately it sets the standard and it becomes what we're all worth in the eyes of the business; because if you won't take the job, then as proven, someone else will...

As the old expression goes, "employers will pay just enough to keep the employees from quitting, employees will work just hard enough not to get fired."

As previous posters have noted, the only way to change/ increase the pay in this industry is for pilots to collectively stand together and do something about it; power in numbers, unions (that's why they exist) etc. Divided we fall; simple enough. And without action, things stay as they are or get worse... Corporate America is about making money. They don't care about you or your family. They just want to increase their bottom line by decreasing their overhead costs. Unfortunately in the business sense, the pilot community is the only real family each other has got. I think the sooner the pilot community embraces that fact and treats each other accordingly, the better.

Bottom line: as long as the pilot community as a whole remains divided, individual, self centered, however you want to put it, (i.e. individuals willing to work for dirt at the detriment of everyone else because they want job security at the expense of others) then ALL pilots lose in the long run...

and "the man" will continue to call the shots. :(

Pilot pay has been on constant decline since aviation first became an industry. Mail carrier pilots were paid the equivalent of $1,000,000 per year in inflation adjusted dollars. I don't see any reason why the slide won't continue. Flying is increasingly easier and less dangerous with all the new technology available.

if a pilot is willing to work for $20 an hour, then that's what their time is worth to them.


I agree 100 percent with this statement but there is not a regional pilot out there that didnt at one time accept these wages.....the only way things will change is for every regional pilot to walk off the job at the same time.

You can't hang it on the guys NOW to look elsewhere for employement when YOU took the job at twenty an hour several years ago.

Actually, qualified applications have shrunk quite a bit. Regionals have been lowering minimums to fill classes. Rumor has it that the stack of qualified resumes on file at Alaska is down to less than 150 -- down from thousands in the pre-paycut era.

I never took a job at a regional. And I'm honestly not knocking anyone that does work for a regional. Regionals have their place. I was fortunate enough to have the opportunity to serve as a Mil pilot.

My point is that this community as a whole seems very divided and very individualized. And as long as it remains this way, then no one should expect any amount of improvement regarding pay scales.

Also, I don't think this is just a "pilot" problem. Honestly, If the airline industry as a whole is to survive, then companies really need to start collectively pulling together and consider raising ticket prices. Especially with oil prices on the rise. Companies undercutting each other like we just witnessed with Mesa and Aloha only serve to bring the entire industry down. "Ultra-low cost carriers" really means ultra-low profit margin. Which in turn means Ultra-low employee pay. The public loves it, but it really does reduce us to a bunch of glorified bus drivers.

Heck, 10 years ago you couldn't buy a one way ticket for $49. It would have cost you at least a couple hundred. It's ironic that as the dollar decreases in value, inflation rises, oil costs rise, and our economy declines, that ticket prices actually "decrease". This industry is on it's way to implosion.

beis77, all of your concerns/examples/hopes deal with deregulation. none of what you said can happen unless some form of re-regulation occurs.

ghillis,

i agree with you to an extent, however, re-regulation in the sense of government regulation of the industry, wages, ticket costs, route structures, wouldn't be required to get the airlines to talk about a way to pass on the increasing fuel costs to the consumer.

There's a technical term for that: price-fixing

And it is heavily regulated, the participants are monitored by the FBI, and eventually relocated to federal low-risk housing facilities.:rolleyes: