A story for newcomers...
 

About 2.5 years ago three of us friends set out on this aviation venture. All of us had about the same amount of time, and all of us had the same options give or take a regional or two.

One of us went to Mesa chasing the quick ungrade, one of us went to a prop outfit also chasing the quick PIC, and one of us chose QOL above all.

One of us is still at Mesa able to hold upgrade, but not enough time, with horrible QOL and the potential of losing flying (see Delta)...the guy is seriously considering getting out of the industry altogether as he has nowhere to go during this downturn...not even another regional.

One of us is now prop captain with about 400 PIC, but nowhere to go, on account of very few major players hiring, and now with ATA guys (among others) on the street whom are much more qualified...well you guys get the picture (he also hates his life at this company).

Finally, one of us is still an f/o less than fifty numbers (idle nonetheless) from upgrade, probably not going to see the left until next year, which will make it almost 4 years, but really happy to go to work every day.

This is a real story, and the moral is pick a place where you could be happy at for up to 5 or 6 years...none of us thought we would be at a "regional" carrier past the three year mark (little did we know about this industry), only one of us is still happy.

Take it for what is worth, just the experience of three guys, I'm sure there's many more....

i totally agree man. Many guys came to Eagle chasing the 12 month upgrade back in 2000/2001. 7 years later...... At least Eagle was a comparatively stable place to be for the 7 years following 9/11.

Thanks for sharing, Bond! This "get in and get out" nonsense has to stop. And I'm guessing that you're behind door number three, eh? ;)

You betcha, but don't think I wasn't tempted by the "PIC" fountain of youth!

In the end I think my unwillingness to commute or give up certain things in life saved me....I just got lucky, and I wanted to share it. Like a lot of you guys, I'm fully aware now of the realities of our chosen profession; and just like many here, I still like getting up and going to work.

something i've also noticed, is that people who are going to complain are typically going to complain anywhere they go...the guy who complains about days off at company A, complains about not flying enough at company B.

I'll agree with what you said though, there's no joy in chasing quick upgrades. However, i believe the same is true about chasing some elusive QOL that seems to always be greener next door. For people who are trying to get on with their ideal company, find a good path to get there and stick to it, but while chasing the quick upgrade can have disasterous effects on a person's future job outlook, and current quality of life. Bouncing around from company to company will do nothing but prolong your time in the minor leagues.

Good post, Bond. Very true. For those about to hit that BIG 250-hr mark with dreams of getting on with a major in the next 3-4 years, think again. Seriously. Times have changed, the age 65 rule is in effect, and you won't be flying a real airliner for at least 4-5 yrs (an RJ is not a real airliner BTW). That said, you seriously need to research where you're looking to go and decide how important quality of life is to you. I've seen several friends come and go over the past 5 years from my regional -- only to make lateral moves for a faster upgrade, and I can only count ONE who is happy he made the choice he did. All of those were hired at the regional level in early 2004, and are STILL at the regional level. Most are still FO's. I can only echo what was said by Bond; "pick a place where you could be happy at for up to 5 or 6 years". You may get lucky before that time, or the industry may make a huge upswing, but you can't count on that. Life is more important, so be smart in your decision. Believe those that have been doing this for a few years: Flying does become a JOB, and when the parking brake has been set at the end of a trip, it's nice having a contract and an employer that afford you good quality of life outside the cockpit.

Sorry for the duplicate post. Disregard!

And you feel so strongly about it, that you just had to post it twice ;):D

Yes, I just had to. :rolleyes:

Did you say that because you fly a Dash-8...;)

Couldn't agree more. My choices for regional were SKW, RAH, and XJT. Didn't want to settle for less so I stayed and instructed till I got there. Completely worth it.

Good observation, usuav8r, but nope. No regional aircraft is an "airliner" as viewed by the flying public. It's simply a "commuter plane" or "puddle jumper" with less experienced pilots. We all know that's not always the case, but we'll always deal with that public perception at this level.

And I hate that perception too (not to 7500 the thread) I've had passengers back out of flying on a King Air 200 because it was too small. I've also been given a higher premium on my life insurance because even though I'm a working commercial pilot, I'm not employed by an airline. Once I start class in May, my rates will drop to the norm. :rolleyes:

Chasing the quick PIC is a very risky move, but it might be appropriate for some folks...self-sufficient, single, not rooted down.

But even if you get the PIC, then what? Is the industry in a hiring cycle? Are you able to compete effectively for a major job? This depends as much on who you know and your non-flying background as your flight experience. There are tens of thousands of RJ drivers out there...what makes you different? Did you do something interesting other than attend an aviation university and get your ratings? Volunteer, peace corps, military, college/ametuer athlete, write a novel, etc. Anything to make you more interesting at an interview (and on a long trip).

I opted for the safer route, mainly for my family's sake. Even with significant cutbacks I'll probably remain a line-holder in my chosen domicile. I'm not the kind of guy who usually goes for "safer" if there are potential rewards for risk, but this time it looks like a good move.

I'm sure those ATA guys won't be able to afford going from whatever their salary was last week to a first year FO salary at a regional?? Sounds like a pretty severe pay cut to me.

I strongly disagree. You are saying that the decision you made with your regional is the right one for everyone out there.

I strongly agree. One needs to do what is right for them, not just what everyone tells them to do on the APC forums.

I work for a bottom feeder, was able to upgrade as soon as I had the flight time to do so, and am very happy with my choice. Yes, it has its days where I'm not the happiest at work, but that is part of the game.

Rick mentions risk...and I think the risk is the same at every regional/commuter. The risk in going to a bottom feeder is that you will end up being there longer than you planned on and go insane with the treatment and pay. However, you'll probably be building more experience faster than anyone else out there. The risk in going to a "top tier" regional (I don't believe there is such a thing, but some do), is that there will be a slowdown/loss of flying, and you'll be 8 years down the road in the right seat asking "What just happened?" Meanwhile, your buddies that went for quick PIC are hired, and likely in their 2nd or 3rd year at a major or LCC (provided connections and the market are conducive to that happening). Chances are QOL at your regional will still be quite good in that situation, though.

It's all in where you lay your chips...good luck to all.

Absolutely, there's something to be said for "gambling big, and winning big", but it just simply wasn't for me, and as it turned out, the conservative approach worked out better in this case. I gambled that I was going to have a great QOL of life and pay, and as bonus a two year upgrade, well I got two out of three, and I'm still happy to come to work every day.

Nonetheless, I did put a disclosure at the bottom of the post that there are many different stories out there...yours is different and I respect your perspective. Maybe you're fortunate enough to have somewhere to go soon, my friend who is building that "valuable" PIC, has nowhere to go, and even if he had 1500 PIC, the market is simpy oversaturated at the moment based on the current forces driving it.

Could things change? Absolutely, but as the cycle comes and goes, the point is that some of us are happy to be at a place where we could easily spend 4,5, maybe even 6 years, without giving up what some of us consider to be the best things in life......in my case family.

They may not be able to afford it, but for many being a pilot is all they know. Unless they can get on with a fractional you'll see many back at the regional level. Happened all the time back in 2002-2003. TWA/AA and UA pilots back to $19 hour at SkyWest. Some had spent years in the right seat of a 757/67. The TWA/AA guys for the most part are still here, and a couple of the UA pilots as well.

I'll bet a bunch of the ATA guys apply for the street captain postions at Mesa.

This industry sure does like to hand out swift kicks to the ...

I was thinking more along the lines, of them taking the few jobs left in the major/LCC arena. After all most of those guys are better qualified than most of us regional folks.

An RJ isn't an airliner?
Dude you are the reason why regionals aren't taken seriously. And why the pay reflects that.

50 years ago people were flying in DC3's. That was an airliner.
Then the vickers vicount. Still an airliner.
DC5,6...Still airliners.
F28, F100. All airliners.

CRJ ERJ all AIRLINERS

Not to get off topic, but it's a matter of perspective. I do think that an ERJ/CRJ is just as much an airliner as a 737 or 757. Some people base their reality on capacity, size of engines, weight, or even the paycheck that comes with it. IMHO, the folks flying it, and the people in the back make any aircraft under 121 an airliner....

I like Subway, everyone should like Subway
 

Who is anyone on here to say what someone else should do. What works for one person will not work for everyone. Hey I had a ham and turkey at Subway, it was good, everyone go get one tomorrow.:rolleyes:

Bond makes himself out to be the genius of the three friends for making what he believes is the best choice. Six months ago the genius is the one who went to XJet with their decent upgrade and great contract QOL. But what if they have to let some people go? My point is that people are individual and will make choices that are the best for them, not the industry norm or what people on the forum say they should do.

Wow, someone woke up a little defensive today. To answer your question, free country and free forum.

I've made no claims of anything other than being lucky, clearly you didn't read the subsecuent posts. It's all good OJ, just trying to pass on some of the things I've learned in the past few years. Why not do the same like Kansas did?!?!?

Instead of posting defensively as if the thread was dedicated to you and you only, why not post your experience and why it's been different for you?

No doubt the brotherhood of airmen is diminishing by the days...it becomes evident when guys attack eachother on forums, instead of sharing experiences.

I work for the bottom feeder Kansas works for (what's up Heath), and bottom feeder or not, my QOL is awesome. 15-17 days off a month, proficiency check airman letter, Line checkairman, instructor (sim/aircraft), and I live in Base (very important for me), and pay is very good. It all depends on what YOU want with your career, and also timing helps. Whether you are flying an RJ, 1900 Emb120, Dash 8, Saab etc, it's important to maintain a good attitude. I had a chance to go to SKW, but didn't. I was happy, pay was good, and my only reason would have been because "Everybody else is doing it too". Sure I get frusterated at work, but I enjoy every minute of the day. When I get done, I drive home, and if I want a change of pace, I'll teach a class, sims or do checkrides. My QOL is awesome, and allows me to see my 5 day old newborn more often!

He's only 5 days old. How much were you seeing him a week ago? :p

ROTFL wow I swear I just woke up the neighbors with that one LoL :D

Hey Joe, congrats.:D

This was not intended to be an attack against you. I think my issue is with people who make it their life mission to tell others what is best for their life. I work at Colgan and it works for me because of individual needs and goals. And then you get these people on the forums say how stupid you are and how brilliant they are for going to X regional rather than Y regional. I know that was not you attempt but everyone should do what is best for him.

I decided the quick upgrade and load up on PIC so when the majors start hiring again I will be ready and competitive. Some want a great contract and higher pay and is willing to wait up to seven years for an upgrade.

These forums just make me crazy with the "your airline sucks, mine is better," and the "dont chase quick upgrade" posts. Again, nothing personal against you, just frustration.

I don't think that anybody is saying you can't ever go against the grain here...but there is something to be said for widely-spread advice, as you will find here. I think that most of what you read here is, in fact, applicable for most folks. Congrats, you're unique ;)

Like they say about New Hampshire - 50 million squirrels can't be wrong!! :D

I walked into that one!:D
In the words of Napoleon Dynamite: "Maybe I WAS with him before he was born...GOSH! And I taught him to drew Ligers and stuff, GEEZ!"

Just Kidding. He was born 5 days ago, and my schedule WILL allow me to see him more. Hope this wording makes a little more sense. 10 hours of sleep in 5 days is definitely safe for flying, which is why I'm on leave till the end of April.

Thanks Heath, hope I'll see you in the release room soon.

No worries. It's interesting to see all the different roads people take and the subsecuent outcomes. I'm glad things are working out for you at Colgan, as I'm glad for the guys at great lakes. I suppose at the end of the day is what you make of it, and how lucky one gets....a bit like "right place at the right time", a lot of us here got into this industry on the upswing of things, but the cycle of the downturn finally caught on to most us...so we'll see what happens in the next few years...

For me this was the right choice based on my needs, for some of you guys, it looks like a different path was the best option based on your needs...all the same best of luck to us all.

Sorry, not ragging on anyone, just giving my POV.

There's a fine balance between flying too much and not enough. Flight instructing has certainly proved that to me. Feast or famine kind of business. I'm with Bond on this one. If I'm going to spend 5 or more years at a company, I want to enjoy working and enjoy life. Same reason I've been at my school for 4 years as a line guy and then instructor.

Totally agree, but enjoy it even if it didn't work out the way you thought it would.

I don't really set goals, that way I won't be disappointed!