Down to the wire
 

Hi All,

I have to post this because I sitting on the fence and need some additional advice/direction. I've finally made it to the point where I can get hired by a regional or freight dawger. I've spent, as most of you have, an enormous amount money getting the ratings, time, and degree so that I can follow my dream of flying for a living. However, I'm struggling with trying to come up with a viable means of surviving on the meager FO pay. I don't want my family to suffer but I've spent way to much money and life cycles not to at least give it a try.

Some background.

Why am I doing this? I currently work in IT (degrees in both IT and Aviation), and make a comfortable living at it. But it sucks....I hate going to work and dealing with the small people and cube life. Just can't see myself doing this for the rest of my life. I only started this career as a means to pay for flying. I do understand that there are small petty people in aviation as well, but I believe not as much.

Questions:

I did some initial inquires at AE, Mesa and Lakes. All would like me to come and talked to them. Actually did the first interview with Lakes. But I would like to know if there is any other regional or even a freight dawger that I should talk to as well (maybe Horizon?) Which is better or offers a real living wage?

How do I get additional flight time or pay? Are they (airlines) flexible enough to allow me to get a second non flying job? I was thinking I might be able to get a part time software development job, but I would need to have a fairly stable schedule. Is this possible? Is there any decent medical benefits?

I have a about 1300 TT, 200 multi so I meet most of the minimums, and from what I've been told could upgrade to Capt pretty quick. Should I stay and fly as Capt or try to jump to the majors as fast as possible? Would this help or hurt my career? I also have a couple friends at Frontier, who have pledged their silver bullet to me once I get the required turbine time. Should I hold out for that?

What would you would do if you were me, knowing what you do now? I know some of you are going to say.."don't do it", but thats not an option, I've already spent the money. Knowing that the whole industry and economy is going to crap, should I just hold off for now?

Thanks,
577nitro:confused:

Find a part time IT gig, that allows you to travel, and pick the regional airline that best suits your needs. I actually have a friend here XJT that has been doing IT on the side since day one, which usually suplements his income by about 12K a year.....that should aliviate some of the pain. Best of luck to you.

I suggest the same. Pick a regional that best suits the QOL that you want. Whether you want to commute or not, where you want to be based. And stability. Right now your gonna be sitting at the bottom for a bit. My thoughts when I picked a regional was not to nessecarily go some where with a quick upgrade or not. I said to myself " If the industry turns upside down again... Where do I think I would enjoy spending quite a bit of time at?" Made a choice with a horrible upgrade but living where I want to live and decent pay for a regional. If I wanted to live somewhere else I might have made a diffrent decision.

I always say base your decision on QOL. You never know how long you might live that life.:)

Take the first flying job you get and work from there. If Frontier is where you want to be then go for it. I'd assume that you've done all the research on them and still want to go there.

Once you've got some seniority in the right seat, you'll be able to arrange your schedule to be able to do a couple days a week of outside work if thats what you want to do. While junior it will be real hard however. If you haven't, marry into money.

I knew a few guys that held out on taking the upgrade to captain, because they were making good money on the side(I think they were loan officers, and assorted other real estate jobs). At many regionals first year will be hard, you will work alot and be tired on your days off. But when you get alittle seniority, you will probably be able to do alot of IT work on the side.

Most regionals discourage or prohibit contract flying on your days off because it screws up you yearly flight times(you time out early). What are you doing on the IT side?

May I ask about the horrible upgrade and why it was so? Just trying to learn here.

Thanks,
577nitro

You underestimate the stress of financial back-tracking. I'm not even 30 and there's no way I'm going back to grad student wages, forget that. You think life sucks because your job environment is not fun, well try removing your ability to have a living wage with one full-time job and you'll quickly find out that financial stress sucks the fun out of your dream. You can't enjoy what you do when you're starving. The difference between your current situation and your future situation is that right now you hate life, but your family doesn't. Tomorrow your life might suck a little less (in perspective), but your family will hate life. Doesn't seem like a reasonable opportunity cost if you ask me, but to each their own.

The previous poster's advice is the best you can get. Regional wages are a de facto part-time job. You'll need a part-time job on the side, problem is now you're really gonna be gone from home the whole month just to make the same income you did before; if that's worth you flying airplanes "for a living" knock yourself out. Finally, Id try to live on base, commuting is not fun, and not advantageous to you either when it comes to having a part-time job, never mind seeing your family. As to the majors, have you seen the news lately.....good luck, you'll need it.

577Nitro,

I am in the same situation as you. It makes sense to try keep a part-time job. I am going to try see if my currently employer will allow me to work part-time (since one is able to do so away from the office) and supplement my income while doing "my dues" as an regional pilot. Keep us posted on how it goes.

And forget all the negativity you read on forums, just stay focused and keep your eye on the ball. Do what you always dreamt of, I know I am, regardless of what some might say. Things have to get worse before they get better.

A couple things, I'm a system engineer with HP on a big Gov. contract right now. But I can turn my hand with computers on just about anything.

I also develop GPS aviation navigation software for the Palm and Pocket PC platform for GA. Had a commercial product called Flight Buddy for a while until 9/11 squashed my market (couple mag articals from AOPA about it & had a booth at OSH one year). I've done some small contract work for AnyWhere Map in the past. Currently trying to get on with a company part time called Hangar B-17 doing development work for them on their XM Weather product; this would make flying for a living doable if I could get it. But the economy is killing them too.

The software development part is fun for me....the systems engineer stuff really bites...thats were ego's and petty politics happen.

577nitro

Well you're probably in a good place to give aviation a try. You can supplement your income if need be, and you can always find IT work if you decide that the flying lifestyle isn't for you.

Have you thought about working on the training side. I.E level D sim instruction, or working for a company that develops sims for the training side.

freight jobs are always around. Some of the coolest people you will meet in aviation are on the freight side. Be careful where you apply, some places are on call sweat shops, and some are scheduled and enjoyable. pay is usually ok

Part 91(corporate or just flying an owners hawker,etc.) Can be one of the most enjoyable flying jobs you can find(or the worst if you find a bad gig). Cool vacation type destinations, long layovers, just enough flying to keep you happy, and not so much that you are constantly fatigued. pay is usually livable

To get a part 91 job you have to network like crazy, and you will never know what your schedule will be next week, or even the next day.

The regionals give you a schedule that you can work around. You will fly like a madman and probably be tired most of the time. The nice thing is that (unless you screw up) you don't have a boss breathing down you neck all day. schedules usually suck ie. long days, short overnights, early show times, multiple soul numbing legs per day. pay sucks first year. But its good experience. Don't worry about the industry right now, its so cyclic that it either sucks or dosen't from year to year.

First thanks for your input, good to hear all sides. As to the above statements, I have assured my family that if the numbers don't add up I'll hold off until they do (the maturity thing, I'm > 30). I can afford that. Also, my wife will be generating income as a teacher...it ain't much but when all things are added up it might work.

I believe my biggest regret would be that I have made it to the brink, and not tried.

Again thanks for your input.

577Nitro-

I'm still wondering why nobody has commented on your choices of regionals, great lakes and mesa? If you're set on taking the huge paycut (and I can't blame you b/c otherwise you'd always wonder) with those times you could go to someplace quality like republic. Unless I guess it has something to do with your location?

577Nitro,
You will make good luck. You and the family will do OK, you have already demonstrated your ability to get a side business going and make more doing it in a satisfying way and still fly for someone profesionally (Regional, etc)
Stay positive, lot of negatives, but remember...

“Nothing in this world can take the place of persistence. Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful people with talent. Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education will not; the world is full of educated derelicts. Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent. The slogan "press on" has solved and always will solve the problems of the human race” Calvin Coolidge

Actually in the post I'm asking about any others as well. Thats what I was hoping to get some answers/advice on. Who else is out there that I should be talking to? Who has experience with other lines? What are they?

Thanks,
577nitro

My first year at a regional I made 35k. Not bad considering 3 of my 10 bids on reserve and i didnt pick up any extrawork. The horrible upgrade is due to the fact that it is still sitting close to 6-7 years to upgrade. This is because I work at a career regional where people never leave.
But my QOL is nice. I can afford vacations and work a standard 4 on 3 off which isnt great but isnt horrible.

I used to work in IT as a computer course/web/graphics designer in college... I hated it... Cube life wasn't for me. Got my current job and never looked back. If flying is your passion, go for it and you wont regret it. The good news is you can probably pick up some IT work on the side. I do web maintenance on the side for extra cash and it is working out great!

Republic has a Denver Crew Base....nice:D. Anybody know what the pay and culture is like there?

Thanks,
577nitro

http://airlinepilotcentral.com/airli.../republic.html

Everyone I have talked to there seems to like it. Upgrades have been relatively short. They are currently in contract negotiations, so hopefully they will get some increases in pay/QOL.

If I add it up right, I could with my wifes salary as a teacher and the pay at Republic ($22.87+$1.69) make around $4725.00 per month. That might just work...along with some side IT work. Possibly some ditch digging as well....

What is the real number of hours you can get? They claim a guaranteed 75, but can you get more? How?

Thanks,
577nitro

A word of caution. If Republic would happen to lose the contract for whoever they feed in DEN, they very possibly would close it down as a base. Horizon once had a DEN base for the Frontier flying but not anymore.

1st Year FO at Republic is $22.95 and 1.65 Per Diem..... Last month I had 109:07 hrs of Credit and 354:07 of Per Diem $2501.58 and $584.10 so that's $3085.68. Now that's last month being on reserve and being used a lot. That's the pay before taxes. I'm not sure if this helped but Not sure where you got the $4725?

From what I've seen on union boards, you won't be seeing the Denver base anytime soon - and possibly never. Do not come to RAH if it's DEN or bust.

I'm adding my wifes teacher pay and the theoretical Republic pay to the equation. Thanks, for the info.:o

577nitro

It really depends on where you're based, I think, as to how much they use you on reserve. 109 credit hours for a month is on the high end, I think. I didn't break guarantee the 2 months I was on reserve, and neither did a lot of the guys I know. Per diem helps out a lot. St. Louis trips are the most efficient in our system right now. They're very high credit compared to say, Cincinnati.

I can commute or relocate if I have to....no biggy.

577nitro

You should read this thread about QOL and regionals.

http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/sh...ad.php?t=24625

I made less than 20k my first year at SKW and I'm doing just fine financially, but I'm single no kids. I had 3 months of reserve and one composite line. That combined with training didn't give me much money. Yeah things were a bit tight but I can't imagine doing anything else. I absolutely love flying with SKW and the PDX crews are amazing. I have yet to fly with someone I don't like. I used to be in computers as well, it was more field work so it was more interesting to me. Once it turned into a cubicle farm job I quit and went to aviation. I don't regret it! I had my bid in for the jet but I took it out a couple of months ago. The Brasillia is a blast to fly and I'm enjoying what I do right now so why change it.

Ahhhh I see... Now, those numbers from last month are NOT normal, I just had a good month. I have had a months of Just guarantee and it's with the per diem it comes out to be about $2100 before taxes.

I haven't heard anything about the DEN base going anywhere anytime soon but It could be. I haven't heard it though. The DEN stuff is all dependent upon Frontier, as long as they're in business we have a DEN base, as we have a long term contract with them.

I'm based in CMH and the Inefficiency of the trips there Help reserve guys.... IE. A 4 day trip. First day will be CMH-FLL Turn CMH-CVG, CVG to ??? EVV.... Ends up with like 8hrs of Credit. Next day... you'll do a EVV-CVG CVG to SBN. only about 2hrs of flying but reserve says 4hrs of Credit. 3rd day maybe SBN-CVG CVG-TRI another 2hr day but 4hr of Credit. 4th Day TRI-CVG CVG-CMH CMH-MCO Turn and them I'm done, another 7-7:30 day. I've only Blocked 18hrs of Flying but I got about 24hrs of Credit. That's what make Inefficient lines pretty good for reserve guys.