Logging PIC time
 

Can a new Captain (obviously typed in the A/C) log PIC time during IOE?

On the release he is listed as CA, and the check airman/IOE instructor is listed as FO.

Thanks.

Good question:

Unless you already have had a FED observation on that class of aircraft, and IOE complete, your name shouldn't be listed under captain.....

Generally, you are sic until your observation flight, then pic on flights thereafter when designated as such..

That is correct

no, that's not correct. far 61 doesn't say anything about fed rides or ioe or any of that. pilot in command time starts when you are qualified as pilot in command of the aircraft, in this example when you finish your check ride (type ride) in the simulator or aircraft.

the difference is, you're not signing for the airplane until you're done with ioe and/or your fed ride (fed ride doesn't always happen right at the end of ioe). you're logging pic time during ioe, but you're not THE pic. you're not signing for the aircraft. that doesn't matter to the faa, but it does matter to future potential employers, possibly.

some companies only care about pic time that you actually flew when you were the one signing for, and responsible for, the aircraft.

it's just like going back to when you were with an instructor in a complex aircraft. you (normally) already had, let's say, a private certificate, single engine land, so you were qualified in the aircraft as pilot in command. you just didn't have an endorsement for complex aircraft yet. so the instructor was there to get you your endorsement. while he was there, he was signing for the aircraft and was ACTING as pic, but you could still log pic time.

the faa is very clear about the difference between acting as pic and logging pic time. they do not always have to be happening at the same time. the faa couldn't care less about ioe and fed rides, as far as this particular question is concerned.

so keep it separate. is it pic time? sure. but when you put your application in to southwest (for example), do they want all that as pic time? no, they want you to tell them pic time when you were the one acting as pic and signing for the aircraft.

Gosh forbid there's an incident:

Which pilot (the IOE instructor or the pilot receiving training) does the NTSB call the pilot in command?

At Mesaba it's very clearly stated that the IOE "captain" is NOT the PIC of the flight, the check airman IS PIC. The check airman is the one that signs the maintenance log and the release reguardless of how the names are listed on the release. Now if the check airman is not giving IOE (the captain is already qualified and the check airman is simply filling in for a shortage of FO's) then the check airman would not be PIC but SIC instead.

i guess i wasted all my time typing that stuff. oh well. anyway, i'll say it again: there is a difference between logging pic time (his original question, if you'll scroll up) and ACTING as pic. that is to say, being THE pic, the one and only pilot in command, which the faa or the ntsb, in your oh so clever example, would want to talk to, is not always and necessarily the same as someone who is, in fact, logging pic time. the faa is very clear on this, and anyone can look that up with them.

i was just trying to give a correct, and complete, answer to his original question. if he (or you) don't believe me, check with the faa. again, they are very clear on this, because (gasp) this guy was not the first person in history to ask such a question.

During IOE the CA in training-in the left seat-is NOT the PIC. Nor can they log it as such. The PIC is the IOE instructor who signs the release. They are the Final Authority of the aircraft. The CA in training gets to log SIC time. For what it's worth, the CA in training is probably logging about 25-30 hrs before their fed ride, so they are not losing that much of the coveted PIC time. When applying to companies such as JetBlue, they spell out what PIC time is. The PIC is the Final Authority of the aircraft. That is another reason why many companies have you seperate all of your dual from PIC time in your log book.

Clever? Oh, how nice of you. ;)

Lighten up Francis. Forum questions aren't necessarily answered in a single reply post. It's an iterative process. Your posts are a critical part of 'the answer.'

I myself took advantage of the FAA's definition for logging multi-engine pic towards what the commuter airlines wanted a decade back.

Seriously, was it clever?

Hell, if the release listed the New captain as Captain and he signs the release, he should log PIC.

read part 61.51 very carefully...
 

No. You may not log pilot-in-command time until you complete IOE, including your FED ride, and then sign for the aircraft on your first line flight.

Part 61.51(e)(1) does not apply to ATP's. To quote the regulation...

"61.51 Pilot logbooks...(e) Logging pilot-in-command flight time (1) A sport, recreational, private, or commercial pilot may log pilot-in-command time only...". The is no ATP listed in 61.51(e)(1). Once you obtain an ATP, part 61.51(e)(1) no longer applies to you. You may no longer log "sole manipulator" PIC time under this regulation for any aircraft ever again. The purpose of this regulation was to allow you to log required PIC flight time toward certificates and ratings, to build experience under the watchful eye of a more seasoned pilot. Once you reach an ATP, that purpose has been achieved.

Under 61.51(e)(2) an ATP may log PIC time while acting as PIC of an operation requiring an ATP certificate. However, this "PIC" is defined in Part 1.1 under Pilot in command. He's the guy who's ultimately responsible.

If you have a check airman in the right seat and he signs the paper work, he's the PIC. And if you screw the approach up enough he'll be happy to inform you of that fact by stating rather loudly, "My Aircraft!" :)

Hey!! IOE went great. Only had to fill out one ASAP:rolleyes:

What about being observed by a Check-Airman for your first flight into a special airport such as KTEX? Can you log it as PIC, or does the Check Airman log it as PIC?

Who signed for the aircraft and is the captain of the flight? And wow you are really went retro on this, 3.5 years... Wow

The release at SKW lists the Check airman as PIC and the new CA as SIC, and I imagine other airlines are the same.

With that said, yes you can log sole manipulator PIC on your legs only just like you could as an FO...it's FAR legal.

But it would be really, really stupid to actually do that because major airlines are only interested in command PIC when you were actually in charge of the operation.

If you want to log it for whatever reason (insurance?), do it in a separate column and don't include that time as PIC when you apply to majors.

Who is the PIC on the release? Probably the check airman, but if it's you then log away.

You can log it however you want, that is your right, but future employers will most likely not count that time towards their minimums.

Technically you could log PIC on IOE, when you are the sole manipulator and since you are most "performing the duties of PIC". That being said most companies define PIC as "The person who signs for the plane", so you might get a funny look in an interview if they look for your IOE and it is all logged as PIC.

In the grand scheme of things 25 hours is not a lot of time. I wouldn't log it just for the sake of not creating hassle for yourself at an interview.

Seriously, in the big picture, that 10-25 hours of Captain's OE that somebody might want to log as PIC really isn't going to matter much anyway.

Totally agree, sounds like logging only what you've signed for keeps everything nice and tidy.

Wrapped around the axle. I love this analogy, works good, lasts long time here.

This is true. But you have to separate it out when filling out airline apps, otherwise they will consider it fraud.

^^This, airlines exclusively ask for only PIC in which you signed for the aircraft. You get rejected if you can't follow directions.

PIC time could legally be logged while on IOE whenever you are manipulating the controls and that would be legal. As far as logging time as "PIC" for command of the aircraft you are not in command of the aircraft as long as there is a check airman in the right seat. Also, even if it were legal to start logging PIC from the start of IOE, most airlines would want to see logged PIC time only when you were PIC and not under any sort of check airman supervision. Hope that helps.

(4) 250 hours of flight time in an airplane as a pilot in command, or as second in command performing the duties of pilot in command while under the supervision of a pilot in command, or any combination thereof, which includes at least—

I believe you can log PIC. This is just a section of part 61 for aeronautical experience required for an ATP. This basically describes the exact same situation that IOE is. If you are performing the duties of PIC why not log PIC? It counts toward your certificates it should count in your log book. If you are performing the duties of PIC and the definition of a PIC has final authority then you would have final authority until the supervising pilot feels then need to intervene. "performing the duties of PIC", like I said, final authority is a PIC duty and you are performing it under supervision.

I should add that if you are not performing all the duties of PIC during supervision then I wouldn't log it as PIC...such as signing the paperwork.

During IOE, that is true. But if it's just a yearly line check (you were already qualified as captain) then you would be signing for the flight, not the check airman, and as such logging pic.

If the check airman is in the jumpseat, you are probably still the PIC.

If the check airman is in the right seat, you are probably not the PIC.

But the release will tell you for sure in either case. Go by that.

That time "performing the duties of PIC" is NOT PIC, does NOT count as PIC, and can NOT be logged as PIC (unless you have a PIC type rating and want to log sole manipulator). It is SIC, and is logged as such.

It can also be used INSTEAD of some of the PIC time required for an ATP. Go read what you just quoted again.

That does NOT make it PIC, it is still SIC.

Look at the 121 dispatch release, that will tell you exactly who is the real PIC and who is not.

The FAA reg actually states that you can log PIC time, even as a FO, if you are controlling the aircraft, and type rated in it. I know some of the Compass FOs that do that, and one actually got a letter from the FAA stating the fact that it is legal PIC time.

Log it all you want, it is your right.

But companies don't have to give you credit for that time.

My last line check had the check airman in the right seat, and the scheduled FO in the back. I was (with only about 5 hours to spare) still current and was listed and acting as captain.
If you aren't current and qualified (typed, current PC, current line check ect.) then you aren't PIC. So Compass FO's may log sole manipulator pic, but CAN'T be the PIC because they do not have a current pic line check.

It's only 25-50 hours. Log it as SIC. It's not enough time to make a difference.