Comair
02-12-2006, 08:26 PM
#2
Prime Minister/Moderator
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Engines Turn Or People Swim
Posts: 39,190
Historically a good company with industry leading pay and benefits...
However, they are now in bankruptcy, downsizing by 20% or more, and will end up giving back a lot of pay and benefits. So it's doubtful you could get a job right now, and who knows what you'de end up with if you did.
However, they are now in bankruptcy, downsizing by 20% or more, and will end up giving back a lot of pay and benefits. So it's doubtful you could get a job right now, and who knows what you'de end up with if you did.
02-13-2006, 04:58 AM
#3
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2005
Position: 7ER B...whatever that means.
Posts: 3,966
Comair is a good example of pilots pricing themselves out of a job. The airline was doing so well for several years and pilots and FAs and mechs wanted their piece of the pie but when the sh*t hit the fan with fuel prices and that computer fiasco a few years back, their cost structure was unsustainable. Just my views as an outside observer.
02-13-2006, 06:22 PM
#5
Guest
Posts: n/a
The Real Problem with Comair
Listen up folks...here is the straight scoop from a Comair pilot. Management is doing what they will always do--coerce the pilot group into working for as little as they can possibly get away with paying. No surprise there.
The real issue is not that the Comair pilot group is overpaid...they aren't. When I began working here just over two years ago, the most senior 70-seat Captain (with 18 years of service) here was earning less than a 2nd year FO at Delta. You can't say that we are overpaid.
Comair pilots went on strike for 89 days in 2001 to raise the salary bar to a liveable wage. These pilots were tired of making $15,000 a year and they stood up for their right to be paid closer to what they are worth. For various reasons (9-11, ALPA's failure to unite the regional pilot groups, or whatever) the rest of the industry failed to follow Comair's lead.
When other pilot groups are content to earn $25,000 per year or less, the Major carriers who are paying our salaries are more than willing to farm-out as much flying as possible to the lowest bidders. This is not just a Delta-Comair problem...this is going on with Northwest and their regionals as well as Continental and COEX.
This "race to the bottom" to see who can fly for the lowest wages in the industry is a destructive and counter-productive practice that is only going to do irreparable harm to every regional in the business.
I fault ALPA for not establishing a "minimum wage" that is the lowest amount that any pilot group will accept for flying. By not having this minimum in place, the managers in the industry are able to play one regional against the other and lower the wages for everybody.
ALPA is finally getting a clue now though. They have realized that their precious mainline salaries are going to be under attack (AGAIN) because the disparity between the regional's pay and the major's pay is inducing management to lower mainline pay in order to "close the gap".
Ok, I've been rambling. I admit it. But anybody reading this needs to understand that pilot salaries won't go back up until pilots band together and face their respective managers with one unified voice. All of you ALPA leaders need to recognize that your failure to support the regional pilots in their quest for liveable wages has done more to undermine your own mainline interests and salaries than anything else.
I love my job, but I can't stand the fact that I could make twice as much money tomorrow if I took my 4-year degree to Wendy's or Home Depot.
The real issue is not that the Comair pilot group is overpaid...they aren't. When I began working here just over two years ago, the most senior 70-seat Captain (with 18 years of service) here was earning less than a 2nd year FO at Delta. You can't say that we are overpaid.
Comair pilots went on strike for 89 days in 2001 to raise the salary bar to a liveable wage. These pilots were tired of making $15,000 a year and they stood up for their right to be paid closer to what they are worth. For various reasons (9-11, ALPA's failure to unite the regional pilot groups, or whatever) the rest of the industry failed to follow Comair's lead.
When other pilot groups are content to earn $25,000 per year or less, the Major carriers who are paying our salaries are more than willing to farm-out as much flying as possible to the lowest bidders. This is not just a Delta-Comair problem...this is going on with Northwest and their regionals as well as Continental and COEX.
This "race to the bottom" to see who can fly for the lowest wages in the industry is a destructive and counter-productive practice that is only going to do irreparable harm to every regional in the business.
I fault ALPA for not establishing a "minimum wage" that is the lowest amount that any pilot group will accept for flying. By not having this minimum in place, the managers in the industry are able to play one regional against the other and lower the wages for everybody.
ALPA is finally getting a clue now though. They have realized that their precious mainline salaries are going to be under attack (AGAIN) because the disparity between the regional's pay and the major's pay is inducing management to lower mainline pay in order to "close the gap".
Ok, I've been rambling. I admit it. But anybody reading this needs to understand that pilot salaries won't go back up until pilots band together and face their respective managers with one unified voice. All of you ALPA leaders need to recognize that your failure to support the regional pilots in their quest for liveable wages has done more to undermine your own mainline interests and salaries than anything else.
I love my job, but I can't stand the fact that I could make twice as much money tomorrow if I took my 4-year degree to Wendy's or Home Depot.
02-13-2006, 07:24 PM
#6
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2005
Position: M88B
Posts: 1,179
SnowMan
You are definately right about that. I agree that more than anything we are going to have to work together to take our salaries up at the same time. I have to admit that I haven't really thought about a minimum wage but it sounds like a great idea.
As I always say though, the people of the U.S. are not going to stop flying. We might lose some passengers if tickets are increased but I think this is what mngmt needs to do to make the airline profitable and to satisfy the pilots at the same time.
Another place that damage is taking its tole is from the fractionals. Many people have realized that if they own a business they can move there people more effeciently with an airplane that flies on their schedule. I really don't know how the airlines can combat this situation because I would rather ride in a private jet too...If i had the money that is
. Well although there are many various problems, if we keep putting our heads together something will present itself.
XtremeF150
You are definately right about that. I agree that more than anything we are going to have to work together to take our salaries up at the same time. I have to admit that I haven't really thought about a minimum wage but it sounds like a great idea.
As I always say though, the people of the U.S. are not going to stop flying. We might lose some passengers if tickets are increased but I think this is what mngmt needs to do to make the airline profitable and to satisfy the pilots at the same time.
Another place that damage is taking its tole is from the fractionals. Many people have realized that if they own a business they can move there people more effeciently with an airplane that flies on their schedule. I really don't know how the airlines can combat this situation because I would rather ride in a private jet too...If i had the money that is
. Well although there are many various problems, if we keep putting our heads together something will present itself.XtremeF150
02-14-2006, 05:55 AM
#7
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2005
Position: 7ER B...whatever that means.
Posts: 3,966
Despite my earlier comments, I agree whole-heartedly with Snowman. Those comments were an observation. And Snowman is right, this is no different than what is going on elsewhere in the industry. The financial problems at United and Delta and most of the Legacies can even be traced back to the "triumphs" of ALPA in the late 90s with their huge pay increases they won for United and Delta mainline pilots which are now being "given back" and then some. Im sure those salaries were great for a few years but not if they make your company's cost structure unsustainable (this also has to do with management thinking that selling their product at a loss is good business but thats a whole 'nother can of worms 
)
I like the idea of a "minimum wage" for any airline so that regionals don't get played against each other like chumps. When labor fights against itself only management will win. If an airline like NWA goes under, we all land hard on our a$$es but management floats down gently on their golden parachutes. This does sound suspiciously communist though... Im sure Aeroflot's regional affiliates all got paid the same up until the fall of the USSR. You have to think: if management can't save money on labor anymore and they can't save money on fuel...where are they gonna "save" money? Kind of scary if you ask me. I would rather get paid $20K a year and fly an airplane I knew wasn't going to fall out of the sky then get paid $40K and fly a plane that I thought would shake to pieces every time we hit a bump.
The rambling will end soon, promise... To save this industry the glut of capacity needs to go away, ticket prices need to return to realistic levels and ALPA and the other pilot unions need to grow a pair of brass balls and stand up for the regional guys. Heck, an increase in regional salaries would actually improve ALPA's bottom line from increased dues! Yes, mainline is more glamorous but you have to ask, how long is it until you see the day of "RJs" crossing the pond or flying JFK-LAX transcons? I know it sounds extreme but I don't think it would be out of the realm of possibilites if airline management thought they could save a few bucks.
Sorry for the long post but I needed a good rant
) I like the idea of a "minimum wage" for any airline so that regionals don't get played against each other like chumps. When labor fights against itself only management will win. If an airline like NWA goes under, we all land hard on our a$$es but management floats down gently on their golden parachutes. This does sound suspiciously communist though... Im sure Aeroflot's regional affiliates all got paid the same up until the fall of the USSR. You have to think: if management can't save money on labor anymore and they can't save money on fuel...where are they gonna "save" money? Kind of scary if you ask me. I would rather get paid $20K a year and fly an airplane I knew wasn't going to fall out of the sky then get paid $40K and fly a plane that I thought would shake to pieces every time we hit a bump.
The rambling will end soon, promise...
To save this industry the glut of capacity needs to go away, ticket prices need to return to realistic levels and ALPA and the other pilot unions need to grow a pair of brass balls and stand up for the regional guys. Heck, an increase in regional salaries would actually improve ALPA's bottom line from increased dues! Yes, mainline is more glamorous but you have to ask, how long is it until you see the day of "RJs" crossing the pond or flying JFK-LAX transcons? I know it sounds extreme but I don't think it would be out of the realm of possibilites if airline management thought they could save a few bucks.Sorry for the long post but I needed a good rant
02-14-2006, 07:06 AM
#8
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Capt
Posts: 611
Pilots are not and have never been overpaid.
Regional pilots especially take it in the shorts. Our companies make money hand over fist yet ask for pay cuts? Why?
When airlines tank..ask management why. They pat themselves on the back when they beat Wall Street expectations and give themselves raises. But when its rough they blame labor.
Same story in dozens of industries over several decades.
When your wife and kids are non-reving and there is smoke/fire in the cockpit what is that crews value to the company and shareholders and you?
Don't every say a pilot is overpaid.
Regional pilots especially take it in the shorts. Our companies make money hand over fist yet ask for pay cuts? Why?
When airlines tank..ask management why. They pat themselves on the back when they beat Wall Street expectations and give themselves raises. But when its rough they blame labor.
Same story in dozens of industries over several decades.
When your wife and kids are non-reving and there is smoke/fire in the cockpit what is that crews value to the company and shareholders and you?
Don't every say a pilot is overpaid.
02-14-2006, 07:19 AM
#10
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2005
Posts: 242
Freezing - I'm glad you made another post to account for your lack of understanding in your first post - it is not that we are overpaid or priced ourselves out of jobs, it's that the collective industry (management) doesn't care to grow the ticket prices with their growing fuel prices. Management is playing the media while we sit back and wait for the next concession demands. I'm concerned that NWA management has an agenda that nobody is talking about yet.
Outsourcing comes to mind. If our government allows foreign ownership we haven't seen nothin' yet!
Also, XJT is flying from Houston to Flores, Guatemala and Nassau withh EMB145s. What's next?
Snowman, I like the way you think. A national union response is a long time coming.
Outsourcing comes to mind. If our government allows foreign ownership we haven't seen nothin' yet!
Also, XJT is flying from Houston to Flores, Guatemala and Nassau withh EMB145s. What's next?
Snowman, I like the way you think. A national union response is a long time coming.
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
