New to all this
 

I am a first time poster. I am currently attending one of those high dollar flight schools. So far I have been pleased, but am still very new to all of the hiring process. I have always wanted to fly and couldn't find a way to do it locally, so when I lost my job as a truck driver I decided to come here. I am 33 yrs. old with a wife and a three year old son. I am concerned with all of the postings that I have been reading about pay and hiring. I could go back to driving a truck, but the lifestyle is about the same and I enjoy flying so much more. Any advice for a beginner is appriciated.:confused:

Keep doing what your doing and stay positive, you can get a bit discourged along the way. If you keep reading on this website you'll get real discourged. The industry is down right now, but it will swing back up, it's like a ten year swing (up and down). Just hang in there. At you stage, I wouldn't read this site too much. Even at 33 you can still come out good. Get on with a regional in the next couple years and then you'll probalbly be with a major by the time your 40. Thats 20yr, might even be 25yrs if they move up the ret. By the time you get your hours, everthing in the industry might be headed in the rights direction. THINK POSITIVE. If flying is really what you want to do your going to have to ***** yourself for the next 5 to 7 years. Best advise is just stop reading negitive aviation and just keep positive in what you want to do. Start reading all this crap, before you go to a regional, so you don't go to a bottom feeder like Mesa or Freedom, ect.

Get Ready !!!!
 

Man you are too old and have too many responsibilities to be taking this path right now. I would bet that there are more ex-pilots in trucking school than the other way around. Am I to assume that you don't have a four year degree either? In any case you should truly reconsider this. In the end you could be left with a huge bill and no job, or worse like actually getting hired at a regional at 18K per year. Think about it and do more research. Don't let these idiot punks fill your head with starry dreamy crap either. Most have a few hard lessons to learn themselves.

SkyHigh

You need to make sure you enjoy flying before you invest the time and money. My recomendation would be to get your private before you make any huge financial commitments. Not sure what school you're at, but what you really need to get into this industry are Private, Instrument, Commercial, Multi, CFI, CFII, MEI. This should cost about $30K, give or take a little. With these ratings there are all kinds of job opportunities to build time and get into a regional airline job.

If anyone is charging you more, you need to understand WHY. You DO NOT need training in airline procedures, turbine aircraft, regional jet simulators or any other crap that is not directly related to flying light twin and single-engine aircraft. I recommend you don't spend your money on this stuff, and I really hope that you haven't taken out a huge loan...:eek:

If your school has you signed up for a huge loan package and has sold you an overpriced program with a bunch of bells and whistles, I suggest you quit immediately. Take your money and get your training at your local airport so you can live at home with your family. A small-medium sized flight school can usually provide everything you need and should have enough resources to maintain your training pace.

With that being said, you and your family are young enough if your wife can work to make ends meet for a few years, and is supportive of this. I agree with your assessment that long term this is better than truck driving. BTW, you will need a 4 year degree to get a major airline job, but not a regional job. Spending a career at a regional would probably pay a little more than trucking, with a comparable lifestyle.

if you are 33, then i'm sure you've learned plenty of lessons in your life. look into the finacials, and not what any school tells you the financials are, and figure it out for yourself

I agree with rickair. Also, stay positive, don't let our rantings on this board or flightinfo discourage you. I have a 2nd career that has supplemented my pilot salary for 8 years now (hopefully, I can quit the 2nd job soon) but when it comes down to it.....I would not give up the flying thing for any other job even if it meant more money. That being said, I have also had pretty good luck in the industry so far.....many people have been handed a $hit sandwich or two so they may feel differently. Good luck!

Flight training is expensive, but there are techniques to keep the cost to a minimum. Here are some things I've been able to put together:

-Train at your local flight school. You don't need fancy technology and a training academy name to learn to be a good pilot. I have a friend at UND and he's a great pilot, but I (a locally-grown private pilot) can fly the plane just as well as he can.

-Private pilot training should be your most expensive, because you have to do the vast majority of the flying with an instructor, which adds alot of extra cost.

-For the instrument rating only 15 hours of the 40 need to be instructional. After I did about 12 hours with my first IFR instructor, he was very pleased with my skills to that point and he "released" me to simply go up with safety pilots. I've gone up with several and did the same stuff i did with my CFII: practice my approaches, holds, communications, etc. The best part is that the safety pilots I went up with chipped in towards the rental cost.

-All the instructors I talk to tell me that once you finish private and IFR, it's mostly just time building to get commercial. They tell me that commercial, CFI, CFII, multi-engine, and MEI really aren't overly difficult in terms of manouvers. At least not as intense as primary training and IFR. This is where you can really save money, because you just need to log flight time (in a legal manner). Go up with other pilots and split the cost. Take turns under the hood so you can each log most of the total flight time and you get instrument practice at the same time. This doesn't mean you won't be gaining real experience. Every flight you make is a proficiency flight. Go up and practice your manouvers regularly. Stay sharp on ALL of your skills. Also, take the oppetunity to explore. Go fly someplace you've never been before. Take some friends up on their first flight in a small airplane, and see if they'd be willing to chip in for the rental cost; they almost always are.

-Traffic reporting: if you live close to a major city, chances are there are local flight schools that use Cessna 150s to do traffic reporting. My flight school in central NJ allows people to tag along and only pay for the instructor. The flights themselves are also good education. They last several hours so they build up your tolerable-time-in-the-airplane. It also gives me experience working in the New York class B.

-Friends can help you. Your relationships with the flight school can have positive effects. I have a friend whose an instructor and he's given me instruction for free (only pay for the aircraft). If you have a very close relationship with the school, they may let you take the planes up for a lower rate.

-If you're going to be doing alot of flying, joining a flying club could save you some money. Also, it gives you an oppertunity to socialize and NETWORK with other pilots, which is critical.

Here's the flight school where I went IFR thru MEI back in the 90's. Great training and people, and it led me into several entry level jobs while I was trying to build time. If nothing else, it will give you a look at some of the more affordable training that is out there!

http://www.prairieairservice.com

Thanks for the tip...

-LA

Im with MikeB and rickair on this one too (even though I went to UND). I followed a very similar path to what MikeB discussed. I got my private at a local FBO while back in high school. Because money was tight and I was going to school and working, it took me longer than it should have (about 70 hours) but it didn't cost me nearly as much as it would have at "pilot factory". Don't let a school sell you solely on their equipment. Yes, a brand new 172 with G1000s is nice and a good learning experience but not every airplane you jump into is going to have dual GPSs and a huge moving map display. I think its better to learn the hard/old way first. That way you have the basics and all those gizmos just make life easier. I laughed my a$$ off when I was in school and a DC-9 pilot from NWA came into my IFR procedures class and was talking about the -9 and how it didn't have a GPS. Just a sea of disbelief on all those fresh young faces.

Another phenomenom you'll discover with "pilot factories" is the bubble effect. In an area with intensive training, a set of de facto procedures develop themselves and then when you get out of "the bubble" where those don't apply, you are stumped! My favorite example is gassing up an airplane. I did it a million times while working on my private but because at UND we have these nice guys in a fuel truck who pull up and top you off the minute you jump out of the airplane, we have guys get all the way through CFI, etc who have NEVER put gas in a plane! "Ground the airplane before fueling, wtf does that mean!?" Moral of the story? All of my private students get gas on their first cross country wether we need it or not.

Bottom line, bells and whistles are nice but not always worth the cost. If you only want to fly for an airline (besides missing out on the true joys of flying), they will teach you what you need to know and how they want you to know it when you get there. Just make sure you weigh the costs and the benefits.

freezingflyboy mentioned something thats exactly right: the true joys of flying. I can't wait to get my hands on a CRJ, but at the same time I don't think I'll ever give up flying small airplanes. Jetliners can be a blast to fly, but at the same time there is a work aspect to it. You have to fly where you're told, when you're told, etc. As far as jobs go it's great. As far as pure enjoyment goes, not as much. Theres still nothing like puttering over the scenery at 1000 feet.

I plan on being an active life-long pilot with Civil Air Patrol and I'm looking forward to aircraft ownership, something like a C152 or an old-school Cherokee 140. If I can get it to look and sound nice enough, I could even take it around to local airport open-houses and show it off. Thats just my little fantasy;)

Yeah, like Mike said. The big factory schools will have an approved list of destination airports, none of which are likely to be particularly challenging. Go to some places which interest you, maybe mountains or dirt strip fields. make sure you have the familiarization training and insurance coverage for where you want to go.

EVERY aviation job I've ever had was obtained by knowing someone who I had met in the aviation world. The two best jobs I've had would have been almost impossible to obtain without knowing someone. This is not to say that you need an uncle who's an airline chief pilot. You'll have plenty of opportunities to meet folks during your training and CFI phase.

I had way more fun flying and flight instructing at LEX and FKR than I ever did flying & flight instructing during my time at Purdue. Purdue (and all universities) have a time-proven curriculum set up...but such curriculum is built to minimize risk and therefore generally limits the learning often gained from new airports and new challenges. I personally think these programs often create new pilots who are redundant on technology (GPS) and do them an injustice when it comes to ADM skills. At Purdue we never discussed marshalling hand/wand signals; had to learn those on my own. We also never gassed our own airplanes. I am afraid that advanced technology primary trainers will create a crop of new commercial pilots that don't know how to do a single-nav hold, fly 'steam gauges' or the proper procedure for landing on a short and/or grass strip...and that is unfortunate.

I *did* get to fly MDW-FWA for my long instrument cross-country though thanks to my instructor who liked to experience new things (and she had never been to MDW). Flying an ILS at 130kts to the 31C MM in an Arrow with a DC-9 up your butt was real-world experience I never got flying the ILS 10 at KLAF.

The idea of a new crop of 300 hour PFT pilots with no steam gauge experience is sobering. :eek:

Well we all PFT'd for our ratings (unless you were military) if you think about it...but not everybody bought their job flying a turbine aircraft!

Single nav holding and short field landing ability don't make a competent 121 pilot, but they sure as heck make a well-rounded pilot that knows more than "gear up speed mode, heading mode, autopilot on".

Aviation universities are great...but people who don't do any flying outside of those programs (and there are alot that I personally know that don't) are doing themselves, their future captains, and their future FOs a GREAT disservice by doing so.

WWFlyBoy,

I went to a high priced flight training program after I got my PVT. The excitement of the career and all the "positives" that I heard from people in addition to the marketing/advertisement is what drove me into the flight training program.

I'm single, 34, and thought the flying gig would be a great career change move. That is, until I graduated CAPT with a HUGE debt, and met with the unpleasantness of the low pay scale and reading all the people on this board who I believe have provided their honest views of the quality of life. Not to mention the poor placement assistance I got from CAPT. Unlike you, I don't have a wife, which to me, would be a great asset since she can get herself a job and provide a level of financial stability. So in your case, you may stand a chance, but DON'T FOOL YOURSELF in thinking that the low pay will get you anywhere. I figured out that in the next 5 years, I can clear close to $500K doing what I was doing vs. the first 5 years as an FO at ASA and Pinnacle and come close to about $130-145K.

My advice to you is, look VERY CAREFULLY over the financials before you get into this game. If you're 23, single, and got no strings, this aviation career would be a great start. But folks like you and me, well, it's a whole different ball of wax.

Someone here mentioned that you get your ratings and then find jobs to time build. It's a good suggestion, but you need to understand the ramifications of that stepping stone as well. Most likely, it won't pay you very well, and it'll be a long time coming before you can build enough hours to even be considered by the airlines. You can be looking at many years at this stepping stone.

Someone else mentioned that you can supplement your salary. While this is true, you have to consider that your schedule is not yours to command. It's the airline's. This means that unless you can find a part time gig with an employer that's going to be cool with you walking out the door as soon as scheduling calls you, you're not likely to find a second job. You could start your own business but again, bear in mind the Bat-Phone phenomenon. Since you said you are a truck driver, I doubt you'll be able to use that as a second job. So if you have another skill that can be used to bring in a second income, take that into consideration as well. You can try to ask around as to what others are doing to have a second income to supplement the criminal pay scale at the regional FO level. I have a feeling you probably won't get too many responses. It's like the "guarded secret" as to how someone can supplement their flying income with something else fearing that you might cut into their slice of the pie. This might be worth a new thread: How are you supplementing your Pilot income? Details only please.

While I'm not discrediting what Express Pilot told you as far as staying focused and positive, that's all good ONCE you made your decision to pursue this career AFTER carefully examining your situation, and what you're about to get yourself into.

Obviously you enjoy flying. I enjoy flying too. But I also enjoy:
* not putting my loan on deferment or forebearance
* being close to friends and family
* more conducive to building meaningful relationships
* live where I want to live
* making a lot more money
* FLY when and where I want to (albeit in a piston light airplane, weather permitting)
* and lots more...

You can't f*ck around at your age with trying to get into the regionals. A hard and expensive lesson I learned. So hopefully, you can benefit from my experiences and not make the mistakes I made. Best regards.

Bold Questions
 

Don't you just love these guys who start a thread with a question and then you never hear from them again?

SkyHigh

Maybe the guy only has access to the Internet at cafes with access points. Maybe he just ran out of money for more minutes. ;)

Just wanted to say thanks for all of the response that I received.

Thanks to all who responded. I will give you more info about my situation if you want or need it to give a more detailed response. I keep getting bumped off line so I am wanting to keep it short for today because I have replied to this three times already.

The comments about the established training programs ring true in my ears too. I went to a university with an aviation program. The primary reason I went this route was because I couldn't afford doing the training on my own. I paid the same for my degree as every other BA and BS there cost. As soon as I finished my flight training there (Multi Comm) I got out. I went to another school to do my CFI, and I now work there. Learning from a different perspective and a different mentality makes you a better pilot.

We have all the bells and whistles. Five aircraft with G-1000s, and three with Avedynes coming. I think it's great. They're useful tools if you know how to use them. I've also turned everything off on a student, and said "you get one comm radio, and a transponder, take me home". Learning the old school stuff, and not being afraid of it, is important as well.

My school is just flight training. I'm not getting a degree out of this and that kind of concerns me. It is a good school though. I've been pleased so far.

No degree?
 

Well,
There is one important thing right there. If you plan to take this thing past the regionals, a 4 year degree is pretty much a "Must Have". Some times as a previous poster mentioned some people go the 141 way just to make the loan process easier. The quality of the degree is not so important. Heck you can get a decent job with one of those university of phoenix degrees from your spare time. The important thing is that you have it though. Best of luck in your decisions.

XtremeF150

No Degree?
 

Even at most of the better regionals a degree is strongly prefrered. By the time you are finished with all the flight training and college you could be well over 100K in debt to get a job that pays 18K.

Skyhigh

Who cares if a degree is required or not!? Do you really want to be 40 with 2 kids, lose your medical and have to either go back to school or take a job that you can barely feed yourself with? Hard to believe that a decision you make now about a degree could put you and your family in a real tough spot down the road.

If you're not getting a degree, you should not be there longer than 6-9 months to get your COMM/CFI/CFII/MEI. Otherwise they're wasting your time, and probably your money as well.

You can get the degree online later; unless you went to a service academy they don't really care where it came from.

HVAC School
 

WWFLYBOY,

Maybe you should switch to a trade school? Sometimes it seems that people jump into aviation as an excuse to play for a while in the vein attempt to be trained for a "job". Especially at the college level I see kids taking a 4-5 year party vacation funded by mom and dad. They choose aviation since it really isn't that hard and is more fun than business school. Is the government paying for your training since you were laid off and all?

SkyHigh

I agree with XtremeF150. You must have your BA or BS degree if you plan on going to the majors. You may even want to start at your local community college, get your AA or AS degree and then transfer to a state university. This will keep the cost of obtaining a four year degree to a minimum. Just make sure the degree program you get into at the 4yr level will accept most, if not all of your credit hours from the community college.

The other factor to consider, just as rickair7777 and SKyHigh put it, is your wife. I would advised you to talk it over with her at length. She MUST be part of the decision process.

At any rate...best wishes & blue skies!!!!:)