Great Lakes questions
 

How many hours per month can you expect to fly at Great Lakes on average?
Also, are you provided housing during training?

Not sure because I don't work there but there FLT time limitations are the same as ours on the EMB-120, that is all part 121 a/c with 30 seats or less can operate under 135 flying time limitations which are:

§ 135 Flight time limitations and rest requirements: Scheduled operations.

(a) No certificate holder may schedule any flight crewmember, and no flight crewmember may accept an assignment, for flight time in scheduled operations or in other commercial flying if that crewmember's total flight time in all commercial flying will exceed—

(1) 1,200 hours in any calendar year.

(2) 120 hours in any calendar month.

(3) 34 hours in any 7 consecutive days.

(4) 8 hours during any 24 consecutive hours for a flight crew consisting of one pilot.

(5) 8 hours between required rest periods for a flight crew consisting of two pilots qualified under this part for the operation being conducted.

http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text...4.23.6&idno=14

§ 121.470 Applicability.

This subpart prescribes flight time limitations and rest requirements for domestic operations, except that:

(a) Certificate holders conducting operations with airplanes having a passenger seat configuration of 30 seats or fewer, excluding each crewmember seat, and a payload capacity of 7,500 pounds or less, may comply with the applicable requirements of §§135.261 through 135.273 of this chapter.

(b) Certificate holders conducting scheduled operations entirely within the States of Alaska or Hawaii with airplanes having a passenger seat configuration of more than 30 seats, excluding each crewmember seat, or a payload capacity of more than 7,500 pounds, may comply with the requirements of subpart R of this part for those operations.

http://www.capapilots.org/Safety/Iss...far121.470.pdf

I’m been told by a few FAA observers that § 121.470 is also referred to the “Great Lakes Reg” seeing that it was lobbied mainly by Lakes and few other 30 seat or less operators due to the amount of revenue they would lose having to operate B1900 and EMB-120 crews under regular 121 flight time limitations. Is this true or not? Not sure but it sure is amusing.

What does this actually mean for you? Well under these regs you can work more and make more money but more importantly your company can now operate more a/c with less crew members because they can work the **** out of you.

And pay you a whopping $16 per hour........

Yes, sad. That 200 hours means upto $3200 more. WOW! BIG BUCKS! :mad:

I actually considered flying for them, but somehow living on foodstamps did not appeal to me.

Other than very very low pay, is Great Lakes an okay company to work for?

I'm not a Laker, but general consensus seems to be: bad management, very challenging training, no autopilot in the Beech, and as you mention, very very low pay. But potentially fast upgrade, and I really get the impression Lakes has one of the best pilot groups around, and ex-lakers are highly respected for their attitude and mad skillz they develop flying the 1900 around the mountains all day.

they are still doing a lot of hiring. You are not paid during training which can mean a month and a half of living out of a hotel without pay. The training is very difficult. The last class 7 of 8 washed out on the beech, and 2 out of 3 washed out of the brasila. You can not bull**** the training. They will not let you "figure it out" during IOE. If you are a junior FO on the beech you will being going to STL for a month or two. You can still upgrade in just under a year. Most lines credit around 100 a month. The pilot group is great. You will not get furloughed. You don't have to worry about flying SIC for 5 years. The airline is in the black.

-Jason

I wouldn't go that far, the 1900 is almost a light piston twin very responsive and it does what you want it to do, max weight is only 17k. Try a base visual approach from 10k on a jet that wants to keep going fast. I loved flying the beech but there's a lack of autopilot and gps and a very limited efis wich forces you to stay focused and never lets you relax. Not to mention more chances of being violated because of that. I am not as fatigued now that I am flying the jet. Also I didn't like the fact that the 1900 is single pilot certified, the cockpit is designed for single pilot, the calls/flows are amazingly redundant. Maintenance was always a big issue also though I'm assuming lakes takes better care of their 1900s.

Why the high washout rate? They are in constant need of pilots and yet they wash 7 of 8/ 2 of 3 out of training... sounds not so good to me. I will be staying far far away...

One of my good friends worked there, and he said that they are VERY old school - nuts and bolts ground school, and NO BULL sim training! ("Crap or get off the pot" type of training)

On reserve, anywhere from 20-100 hrs. per month. Right now, probably right in the middle of that. Once holding a day flying line, figure 90 hrs/month for a conservative average.

Provided double occupancy hotel throughout training.

There will be days where you are mad at the world. These for me, so far, have been far fewer than the days where I spend most of my day laughing and enjoying the job, as well as those that I have the privilege work alongside. It's a whole different mindset here in terms of management vs. pilots...

The short upgrade still exists, and that to me is worth a TON. If a short upgrade isn't of major importance to you, then I would not even think of coming here.

Not perfect, but never felt unsafe in one of our planes by any means.

This is partially true, but I don't see it as anything that is over the top. If you show up to ground school and don't know how to use an RMI, enter a hold, or fly an NDB approach, study your flows, or have a good attitude when things aren't going your way, you will wash out, plain and simple...nothing out of line by any means, but it ain't easy.

Are you Kansas, Heath?

Yep, you're good...PM me, who is this?

I put in 4 years at lakes on the beech as well as LCA and sim instructor on the BRO. The training is "nuts and bolts" but Ive never seen anyone get flushed that shouldnt have and I have seen people get through that needed more work but had great attitudes. The pilot group is kick ass and if you are a looking to work for GLA you will learn as much there as anywhere else you could fly. It is my opinion that If you go straight from 172s to jets you are missing out on a world of fun and skills aquisition. If you have a family and dkont have a sugar moma, then dont go to lakes but other wise go fly a Tprop, you might learn something ; ) Also, I now work for a great small corporate flight department and wouldnt want anyone else hired here UNLESS they flew at Lakes!

BUR, this is the first time I've heard this one...perhaps you should ask some other guys how much 1900 guys are respected. A jet that wants to keep going fast? Oh no!:D

Sounds like this whole paragraph supports 1900 drivers being "respected for their skills" throughout the industry.

How long is reserve running at Lakes right now? After you can hold a line, are they hard to commute to out of So. Cal.?

I may consider applying after I graduate this year and I have family in COS that I'll be able to live with for a little while. I'd like to end up back in So. Cal. though living with my parents so i can save a little money before jumping over to SkyWest or something.

Are GIA guys respected as well since they fly 1900s in south FLA?

Not sure how long for new hires, typically it runs somewhere around 2-3 months (I hit it wrong and sat for nearly 6, which is pretty long over here). We have SoCal commuters, so it can be done...but I wouldn't recommend it. Lakes is tough enough without having to deal with a commute.

I would just stay and instruct and then try to go to SkyWest or something right off the bat, if you aren't planning on upgrading here...but Lakes will help you get to that "better" regional if that is your goal.

It's just an idea that's floating in my head right now. The 1900 looks like a blast to fly and I'd like that little bit of extra experience and equipment variety in the career. It'd be great if ZK gets the EAS stuff in AZ back and maybe open the PHX base again. But yeah, I will instruct in the fall when I finish school. I just don't know if I'll be able to do it all the way to SkyWest's mins.

They also have a 15 month training contract........

I got turned down by them 12 years ago. That was one of the best things that happened to my flying career. If you can qualify for them, you can qualify for bigger outfits where your career expectations if you get stuck there will be light years ahead of Great Mistakes.

I did well enough in the interview to get the job 5 years ago and it was the best thing to happen to my career ;)

From the looks of things "Great Mistakes" is back around the Great Lakes.

I remember being in awe of the "big" plane that came roaring on the the ramp in Manistee, MI, picked up some guy and blasted off to ORD.

Never worked there but from guys that did it lived up the "Great Mistakes" name. But I'm sure it has been good for some people. To each his own.

Probably be the quickest PIC turbine time out there in this present airline environment, or at least close to the quickest. Depends on what you want, like most things in life.

I must say that after 5 days of flying 5-9 leg days I am about ready to quit, however it only takes a goodnights sleep and a day off before I'm ready to go back and fly the Beech again. I held a line my first month out of training as an FO, upgraded in 7 months and held a CA line after two weeks of reserve. I am not going to say that our QOL is great (although I have not been junior manned in months since we have been staffed again) and yes FO pay sucks however, I'm making $28.70/hr 13 months from DOH and logging PIC turbine time. This pilot group is awesome! There is no doubt that this job demands that you are on top of your game and leaves little room for error. Not uncommon to do a bunch of non-precision own nav approaches hand flown in the mountains all day long and I enjoy shooting 1800-RVR approaches in a snowstorm in a /a equipped Beech (DEN approach calls 1/4 vis CAT II equip or Lakes). This explains the wash rate in the sim, you have to have a scan! Seems basic but GPS moving maps and G1000's are doing for pilots what X-box is doing for high school students. I am not trying to stand on a soap box but there should be no mistery for a pilot coming to Lakes that you are going to have to put up with low pay, some crummy overnights (I like MHK though "Kansas"), have to do a bunch of hand flying and fly instruments with the bare minimum equipment to bare minimums for 5-11 legs a day (yes thats scheduled), and fly with one of the most fun pilot groups that I know of! I think the Lakers who have recently gone to DL, NW, US, Alaska, Alliegent and others would say that they found being a Beech driver was pretty respected.

P.S. Yes I bought and RJ type b4 I came to lakes (cause I diden't know any better) and just have to say I'm sorry if descent planning from 10k with a FMS snowflake, eyebrow, and speedbrakes on a visual app is tough. Some of us have to do mental math for crossing restrictions but can do 248kts to the marker and still be configured and slowed by 500ft. Your right we have it easy!

We do mental math also, at least I do an old habit I guess. As far as the last point, you've got 9 foot speed brakes on each side not as hard as it sounds. ;)

It's undeniable that flying a prop gets you the quickest upgrade and gives you some credibility in that you have good flying experience especially with no autopilot and GPS. However from what I saw the CAs at my previous airline weren't having any luck with the better majors/legacies out there citing not enough experience on jet/advanced airplanes. The only guys that made it to top tier airlines like CAL had a few thousand of pic and were instructors. I guess in the last few years there has been a rise in regional jet CAs applying though it has been tougher market for prop guys.

Jeremy, are you Moonship?

2 for 2! Who r u?

Always interesting that the guys that call it Great Mistakes never worked here.

Luke. You are the only one I know who bought an RJ type.

Lakes is what it is. I worked there and if I had to do it all over again I would work there again in a heartbeat. If F9 doesn't work out, I might just get my wish;)

HEALTH!

I personally know people at CAL that had only a few hundred hours of jet time and whatever the PIC time mins were/are (not in a jet mind you...or turbine...just PIC time) get hired.

One would think that a guy flying the Mighty Beech with 500 hours of PIC had WAY more experience that someone with 500 hours of jet FO time... But then again, life isn't fair.

Some of those CAL people won't see jet PIC time till it is in a 737...but I digress.

The guys I flew with at XJT back when we had the Beech always liked hand flying. Old habits die hard...

Man, the fridge just doesn't look the same anymore without about 6 dozen eggs in it.

Perhaps the difference is we don't relax our standards in a tight market. Unfortunatly I believe its a factor of low time new hires.

Jet and "advanced" experience has got to be one of the biggest fallacies in this industry. No offense to RJ drivers but if you can teach a 500hr CFI to fly a jet, I'm pretty sure that I can figure it out too.:cool:

I agree, glass/jet time is overrated. After several hundred hours of turboprop PIC under your belt, the transition to a jet is a piece of cake. As for the bells and whistles, after a half hour or so of punch and pray, one gets enough of the basics to work it for a flight. It is just as easy, if not a little easier, to learn Collins AMS 5000 as a Trimble 2000.