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Old 07-08-2008, 05:01 PM   #11  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paxhauler85 View Post
This was the last course of action. We have tried all avenues, with this exception.

I will not deny and UAL guy a jumpseat, but as soon as they deny me or any other Mesa pilot, I will reciprocate. I won't start the fight, but I'll jump in after its begun without a thought.

Don't worry guys, ALPA will sort this out...
And it was the DUMBEST course of action, without a doubt. Screwing over fellow airline pilots.

ALPA has NO pull with UA mgmt. Their words will fall on deaf ears, trust me. ALPA cannot "sort this out". It is up to UA's mgmt to fix it. They have not done so in 2yrs because all they see is $$$ that would go to help employees, and they certainly aren't going to waste it on employees!!

And yes, you DID start the fight by bringing the jumpseat denial card up. So, no need to say "hey, I didn't start it..."
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Old 07-08-2008, 05:18 PM   #12  
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Originally Posted by Rightseat Ballast View Post
Such a typical response from United Mainline... "stupid little RJ pilots with their stupid little issues. We devoted one whole hour to listening to them, and they still weren't happy. How dare they! It is an honor to speak with us. In response, we will use big words and long sentences to convey the superior length of our johnsons. Also, we are going to deny YOU before you deny US. So there!"

UAX pilots have a legitimate issue, and these are the deaf ears it falls upon. United claims that to resolve these issues will take longer than the one month ultimatum given. Well, these issues were brought to their attention nearly two years ago. UAX pilots are being forced to pay to non-rev on their own aircraft while a mainline jumpseater is riding for free up front. That is disgusting. United then makes the classy move of saying it is the gate agents fault... well YOU hired them! How hard is it for United to print off a laminated memo that says "UAX goes first on own metal" and post it on every UAX gate desk. That is a cheap fix, and it is spelled out nicely for everyone. It would also be there for a UAX pilot to easily reference should a problem arise.

The UAX letter to UAL pilots is a bit extreme, but it was meant to be an attention getter and an educational tool. Instead of listening, the UAL MEC decides to tell their pilots to disregard the letter, and to be the bigger jerk.
"An attention getter and educational tool"? By denying UA pilots the jumpseat? WE HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH YOUR PROBLEM! Denying us your jumpseat will NOT get you any leverage with this mgmt.

Well, the only attention you need to get is that of UA's mgmt. The UA pilots and MEC have exactly ZERO to do with the programming issue.

I suggest you get out of your seat and exercise your Captain's authority. It's your jumpseat.

I agree it's a problem. Denying UA pilots your jumpseat will do nothing other than foster ill will and make tempers boil over. In turn, you will be screwing your fellow shuttle pilots who commute to work
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Old 07-08-2008, 05:50 PM   #13  
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Originally Posted by Rightseat Ballast View Post
Such a typical response from United Mainline... "stupid little RJ pilots with their stupid little issues. We devoted one whole hour to listening to them, and they still weren't happy. How dare they! It is an honor to speak with us. In response, we will use big words and long sentences to convey the superior length of our johnsons. Also, we are going to deny YOU before you deny US. So there!"

UAX pilots have a legitimate issue, and these are the deaf ears it falls upon. United claims that to resolve these issues will take longer than the one month ultimatum given. Well, these issues were brought to their attention nearly two years ago. UAX pilots are being forced to pay to non-rev on their own aircraft while a mainline jumpseater is riding for free up front. That is disgusting. United then makes the classy move of saying it is the gate agents fault... well YOU hired them! How hard is it for United to print off a laminated memo that says "UAX goes first on own metal" and post it on every UAX gate desk. That is a cheap fix, and it is spelled out nicely for everyone. It would also be there for a UAX pilot to easily reference should a problem arise.

The UAX letter to UAL pilots is a bit extreme, but it was meant to be an attention getter and an educational tool. Instead of listening, the UAL MEC decides to tell their pilots to disregard the letter, and to be the bigger jerk.

So you expected UAL ALPA to roll over after receiving a strongly worded message from UAX?
UAL ALPA responds in kind, and you're surprised. Brilliant.
But then, this message wasn't addressed to UAX pilots. It was there to inform UAL pilots what was going on behind the scenes.

There is some additional background to todays events, that may explain the earlier deadline.

Two UAL pilots were traveling out of IND, when a Shuttle America captain went up to the podium and told the gate agent that UAL pilots are no longer allowed on the jumpseat at SA, and that it is new company policy. Don't even bother sending them down. Just to make sure they heard correctly, the UAL pilots confirmed it with the gate agent.

So it seems denials from the UAX crowd have already started. That got the Jumpseat chair's attention.

Hopefully cooler heads will prevail on both sides. The only real losers here are going to be the families, when Mom or Dad can't make it home.

Hog

Last edited by Groundhog; 07-08-2008 at 05:55 PM.
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Old 07-08-2008, 07:06 PM   #14  
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This is so dumb I cannot begin to describe it.


"UAX Pilots Association" was dumb enough to start a jumpseat war. Stupidest idea I have ever heard. I was so happy when I saw many UAX pilots on this board say that they would never deny a UAL pilot a jumpseat. Thankfully there are some clear thinking pilots out there.

Then the UAL MEC is stupid enough to escalate the issue further and say if the "UAX Pilots Association" does not respond to their ultimatum within 1 week, then they will ask all UAL pilots to deny UAX pilots the jumpseat. Morons.

Now I hear some UAX pilots say if UAL starts the no jumpseat war, then the UAX pilots will finish it (and thus deny jumpseats to UAL pilots). Are you kidding me!!!!!!


If any UAX pilots are denied UAL jumpseats, they will have no one to blame but the "UAX Pilots Association."
If any UAL pilots are denied UAX jumpseats, they will have no one to blame but the UAL MEC.

NO I did not get that backwards. These pilots will have no one to blame but their very own representation for starting/escalating a jumpseat war. This must be managements best wet dream. And it is coming at a time when we as pilots need to be sticking together the most. Many of these guys/gals who may be denied jumpseats if this war happens are more than likely facing furlough/downgrade. Do we really need to give them any additional stress at this time.

All I hope is, regardless of whatever position the "UAX Pilots Association" or the UAL MEC take, I hope each individual pilot at UAL or UAX will recognize the stupidity of a jumpseat war, and continue to allow every UAL/UAX pilot onto their jumpseat.


I just can't believe how idiotic this entire situation is. The "UAX Pilots Association" was stupid to start the war, and the UAL MEC was even dumber to escalate it.


Any of you will be welcome on my jumpseat anytime. The only people who I would ever deny a jumpseat to would be scabs. I would not even deny a jumpseat to a Gojet pilot. I would still probably let a Gojet pilot on, and just give them a lecture about how their actions are undercutting the entire industry for the flight. But any action beyond this is just so insane. Do not use the jumpseat as a political tool.
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Old 07-08-2008, 07:39 PM   #15  
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Originally Posted by DANCRJ View Post
This is what I'd call Managment's wet dream....... pilots fighting pilots, within the SAME UNION !!!
I agree with you, although it's worth pointing out that most UAX carriers are non-ALPA. Only TSA (who didn't sign the letter) and Mesa are.
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Old 07-08-2008, 07:57 PM   #16  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iahflyr View Post
This is so dumb I cannot begin to describe it.


"UAX Pilots Association" was dumb enough to start a jumpseat war. Stupidest idea I have ever heard. I was so happy when I saw many UAX pilots on this board say that they would never deny a UAL pilot a jumpseat. Thankfully there are some clear thinking pilots out there.

Then the UAL MEC is stupid enough to escalate the issue further and say if the "UAX Pilots Association" does not respond to their ultimatum within 1 week, then they will ask all UAL pilots to deny UAX pilots the jumpseat. Morons.

Now I hear some UAX pilots say if UAL starts the no jumpseat war, then the UAX pilots will finish it (and thus deny jumpseats to UAL pilots). Are you kidding me!!!!!!


If any UAX pilots are denied UAL jumpseats, they will have no one to blame but the "UAX Pilots Association."
If any UAL pilots are denied UAX jumpseats, they will have no one to blame but the UAL MEC.

NO I did not get that backwards. These pilots will have no one to blame but their very own representation for starting/escalating a jumpseat war. This must be managements best wet dream. And it is coming at a time when we as pilots need to be sticking together the most. Many of these guys/gals who may be denied jumpseats if this war happens are more than likely facing furlough/downgrade. Do we really need to give them any additional stress at this time.

All I hope is, regardless of whatever position the "UAX Pilots Association" or the UAL MEC take, I hope each individual pilot at UAL or UAX will recognize the stupidity of a jumpseat war, and continue to allow every UAL/UAX pilot onto their jumpseat.


I just can't believe how idiotic this entire situation is. The "UAX Pilots Association" was stupid to start the war, and the UAL MEC was even dumber to escalate it.


Any of you will be welcome on my jumpseat anytime. The only people who I would ever deny a jumpseat to would be scabs. I would not even deny a jumpseat to a Gojet pilot. I would still probably let a Gojet pilot on, and just give them a lecture about how their actions are undercutting the entire industry for the flight. But any action beyond this is just so insane. Do not use the jumpseat as a political tool.

Yep, you can't say it any better than that! Nice post!
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Old 07-08-2008, 08:36 PM   #17  
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I agree with you, although it's worth pointing out that most UAX carriers are non-ALPA. Only TSA (who didn't sign the letter) and Mesa are.
Yeah, I guess that's one of the factors, specially with Skywest, which is one of the strongest. I really don't have a problem with non-alpa carriers, but hey, at least they could respect the "basic" laws of unity among pilot's group, in this particular case, jumpseats. Ohhh man..........this could be a snowball, and is gonna go both ways...........
DON'T MAKE MANAGMENT HAPPY ! They love to see this crap going on.
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Old 07-08-2008, 08:56 PM   #18  
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Hopefully, both sides will agree that:

1. There is an issue(s)
2. That issue(s) favors UAL/ALPA members.
3. Make a good faith gesture to fix it by
a. Addressing the issue with their company
b. Making a promise that works toward that goal
c. Put a timeline on when it ultimately will be fixed.

I do get the issues (I think) on both sides. I also understand that UAL/ALPA does not have the keys to the computer to just fix it themselves. But who else can get this done ? Clearly, over 2 years, the only measurable progress has been status quo.

There would be no jumpseat issue if there was concrete movement in the direction that I think most think is logical, UAX pilots ride first on their iron. UAL comes after that. The reverse would be logical for UAL pilots on their own iron.

That's not the case currently. All actions to date have resulted in no change. The ball truly is in UAL/ALPA's corner, and I suspect if they really want to pursue their proposed "immediate" action, they'll get what they ask for.

And the issue will still not be fixed.
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Old 07-08-2008, 09:24 PM   #19  
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And it was the DUMBEST course of action, without a doubt. Screwing over fellow airline pilots.

ALPA has NO pull with UA mgmt. Their words will fall on deaf ears, trust me. ALPA cannot "sort this out". It is up to UA's mgmt to fix it. They have not done so in 2yrs because all they see is $$$ that would go to help employees, and they certainly aren't going to waste it on employees!!

And yes, you DID start the fight by bringing the jumpseat denial card up. So, no need to say "hey, I didn't start it..."
The argument could also be that UAL pilots have been screwing over UAX pilots for years with a JS system that favors them over us on our own friggin' airplanes. It's even better when they state that the Jumpseat shouldn't be used as a political tool...unless someone else starts it first...then it's a free-for-all. I don't use UAL to commute, ever. And anywhere I do need to go on UAL, there's others that go there too (and their flight will probably be on time).

Your management has shown no willingness to correct the situation...but your pilots have shown plenty of willingness to occupy our jumpseat while leaving our pilots sitting at the gate wondering what the hell just happened.
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Old 07-08-2008, 10:03 PM   #20  
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You know how a great many of United pilots are, refusing to remember the "no RJs on property" vote years ago, and refusing to realize that the outsourcing happening at UAL with the transfer of so much flying to the UAX carriers is the end result of THEIR DECISION.

By not having the balls to stand up to UAL management (and "steal" the flying back), they turn to us, the UAX carriers (holding up more of the UAL system than United itself), and take it out on us pilots, many of whom (like myself) were barely old enough to drive when that vote was made.

We all know that some mainline pilots refuse the jumpseat (one in DEN comes to mind) to us because we "steal" the flying. Jumpseat not a political tool, yeah right. Practice what you preach.

I grew up in a United family, it's in my blood, I can't help that. Being a UAX pilot now, and having an up close view of how United operates, and how the pilot group operates in their relationships with other parties, makes me understand why many pilots I fly with say they no longer have any desire to work for United Airlines.
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