Could unions be the problem?
 

Yes I realize the above question is an invitation to flame me. And I will not dispute this. But I have an honest question and, as someone about to begin this career, I would like an honest answer.

Are unions to blame for the current state of pilot pay, QOL, and working conditions? Here is why I ask: After 9/11, when the major airlines were all losing money, they all went to the unions and begged for wage concessions. The unions, fearing massive layoffs, obliged, and the low pilot pay we say today is a reflection of the unions' judgement in that situation. I noticed that the people who WEREN'T asked to "make sacrifices" were the airlines' non-union employees. Not just executives, but everyone from the non-exec folks in the corporate office down to the baggage handlers. From my perspective, it looks like having a union is like having a spokesman yelling "cut my pay!," since it's easier to bully a single entity rather than a bunch of independant workers. Pilots used to make as much as engineers, architects, and lawyers. None of those groups are unionized, and as independant workers their employers can't cut all their pay in one fell swoop. It seems as though pilot pay has dropped because the unions legitimize the process of cutting pay. From what I've seen, only in a unionized workplace can management look every employee in the eye and tell them their pay is being cut.

What are your thoughts on this? I'd like to be enlightened here.

Pilot unions are the most worthless unions around. They have done nothing and continue to do nothing but hurt wages and QOL.

No. Unions are only good when everybody is fat dumb and happy. They come in to make sure all the dough is being divided accordingly. However now there is no more money and capacity is going down. Hence the start of these kind of threads where people look for someone to blame.

No.
Your premise is faulty. Non union employees got hosed harder than union employees did. I was a CAL "baggage handler" on 9/11. The company unilaterally imposed a cut of about 12% on us. They were kind enough to ask if we wanted it as lower wages, or higher medical premiums, reduced vacation time, or some combination. But there was never any doubt they they were going to get every penny they wanted - because we had no choice. They made all the rules. If we didn't like it we could quit.

CAL pilots had to approve a change in their contract, and while they did approve concessions, by majority vote, they managed to include a provision requiring (large) payments to their pension fund. They got something in return for their deal.

And the FA's didn't sign off on their deal for almost a year after I got my paycut.

No a union is not an invitation for lower pay. That's why companies spend so much time and money fighting to keep unions off property. As far as I'm concerned the worst union imaginable is far preferable to no union whatsoever.

Thank you for your account. You do realize that I am speaking purely from an outsider' perspective. But what about the airline's office workers? Did the "marketing systems analyst" (aka office job with no clear defined purpose) see his pay cut.

Just to be clear I'm not anti-union, though I do question their merits in some instances. In others, like grocery stores, I find unions beneficial. Grocery workers make decent pay (sadly more than some pilots), and I find they provide better service than the people at Walmart who can barely speak English.

Unions are a necessary evil in this industry. It would be worse without them. Sure they have their problems and need restructuring but they are needed. I think if we had a shift and made ALPA a union again instead of a union/business it would be alot more helpful. Also this mentality that its all about those at the top needs to be ousted. its shouldnt be u.n.I.o.n. We have a serious lack of leadership in all aspects of this country and this industry is no different. There are a number of positve things that a union does and there have been a number of positve leadership examples recently. for instance the NWA and DAL mecs are working together now which is a huge step considering the USAIR mess.

By having individual union mecs for everybody that does nothing but pin the MECs against each other when it comes time to actually work together. All regionals should be brought onto the bottom of each respective mainline and it should all be 1 list. At least for the wholly owned. Doing so would effectively get rid of whipsawing the regionals against the majors which keeps pay lower. This would also allow guys getting into the industry to get on at mainline quicker which allows everyone to start accruing longevity at a earlier part of their careers. I think this was prevented in recent past because then guys at mainline couldnt get their military buddies on flying heavies right way but fact of the matter is thee arent that many military pilots getting out these days and the number of military pilots is shrinking every year.

in order to make big changes in this industry we need a leadership that represents all pilots and we all have to stand together or its all pointless. the downfall of the Union isnt completely just the union, we are all partially to blame for not standing together. Read these forums and its easy to see the infighting and bickering and serious lack of unity.

Rant over ;)

Unions could do a much better job....
 

Wages will probably stay low for a long time as well because when the negotiations occur the company will say: "well this pay you are requesting is much higher than the industry average for airlines operating Airbus A320 series aircraft, therefore we are not willing to go that high"

Union will reply "correct but not compared to pre-911 times"

Company: "correct but we are not in pre-911 times, we are all still feeling the pain of the fuel and oil crisis and if we raise pay too high we will lose out on the bottom line and will not be profitable"

;) I am in an all around crap mood, friends are losing their jobs, I and being moved to the bottom of the seniority list to our worst base more than likely...if i get to keep my job. I just had crew scheduling give me something I really did not and should not have received IF we had never let up on OUR PREVIOUS CONTRACT LAST YEAR!!!!!!


Rant continuing in my head....:p

Management would not even have to "bully" a single entity/union to a lower pay standard at a non-unionized company. In essence, management could do whatever they wanted to employees with regards to pay and work rules.
Unionization in the transportation sector is difficult because most unionized employees cannot use the greatest tool/weapon against management which is a strike. It's difficult for airline unions, such as ALPA, to really strong-arm management into better pay or work rules. While I'm not saying it's impossible for an airline to strike, it's very difficult to get to that point legally.

An important thing to remember also is that unions didn't form because management was doing such a great job taking care of employees. Unions formed because of neglect to a company's employees' needs.

By the way, if you really want to start some flame just tell everyone that you love Mesa and that your willing to pay for your type rating just to fly a shiny jet.

The problem with Unions is that the current political arena does not allow unions to work as intended (The RLA not implemented as designed is a slap in the face). While I did vote for Bush last go-around, I am highly disappointed in the lack of union support from the politicians in Washington.

On top of the political climate that has changed since the advent of Unions is the fact that overall in the social circles the "american way" is cheaper, bigger, better, more and in the workforce its "may the best survive". These factors only make picketing useless and further frustrates everyone involved in the union drives towards better work rules, wages, and QOL. The "american way" has morphed the workforce demographic over the last few generations over managment groups claiming higher wages and better work environments in place of no unions, due to that fact the CEO/management pay has grown exponentially since the disbandment of many unions in many different labor arenas while the blue collar, and in many instances lower white collar workers have suffered.

Just my thoughts at 6am.

ALPA. One Voice, One Union!

I agree with this 100%! However, you forgot to put, in quotes:

ALPA. One Voice, One Union! (One voice until I'm affected, One union only as a semantic that my dues go to the same office as everyone else.)

One other HUGE issue that's deeply affected our industry over the last 8 years is the bankruptcy code and how managements have been able to manipulate it and the process. Let's hope ALPA can make some headway in changing the "qualifications and process". If a union truly had any recourse for managements actions, the "bar" in our industry wouldn't have been set as low as quickly as management has set it.

Unions are not really to blame for the downward spiral of pay over the last twenty years (not just since '9/11'). Each individual pilot who has voted, volunteered or acquiesced to lower pay, whether it be in conjunction with a unionized carrier, or who has just sold out the profession on his or her own, is responsible. This has been a continual slide down the drain since the mid-1980s.

The current state of ALPA and the other lap-dog pilot unions is a symptom, not the cause, of low pilot pay. Pilot pay is now low in all air carrier companies, whether the pilots are subject to collective bargaining or not.

I grew up and to this day don't particularly care for unions. Having said that, I can not imagine working for AMR Corp. without having the protection of ALPA. I have never once (in 8 1/2 yrs) been called to the office for disciplinary issues, but have seen many who have. Some earned it. Some didn't.

Also, I have volunteered on the Aeromedical and HIMS Committees for six years, and can tell you that the ALPA Drs. are second to none, and HIMS HIMS - A Substance Abuse Treatment Program For Commercial Pilots really helps those in need. I have gotten back more than I've given.

Bottom line- you (and your pilot group) get out of your union what you put in.

Unions could be doing a better job. Having said that, there would be no such thing as negotiations for concessions without them. The company would immpose them, and we'd have to take it.

Just like your government, your union is only as strong as those running it. If it's members take an active roll it will do a much better job than if they just sit idly by. Remember, it's your money.

I'd say that the unions really aren't the problem, (as stated by everyone else) the pay would have come down whether you were unionized or not, it's just a matter of if you'd agreed to it (union) , or it was imposed (non-union) there's also the chance that the union could have voted down concessions. But in which case, the company would probably have gone bankrupt, and restructured anyway, lowering the pay during the process (while awarding themselves a large bonus i might add).

What i see as a huge problem in aviation is that you can't market experience. yes, it's the only thing that will get you the job with Delta, NWA, Southwest, or many other airlines, but pilots are essentially picking what they believe to be "quality" outfits that should be around in a few years, or, picking the best "salary" available. Any most other professional fields, your resume and experience gets you the opportunity to negotiate a pay rate that you and the company feel is adequate. Here, they don't, and as long as you can't, no company is going to fight over getting an employee, you're just another toothpick in the box.

That is an interesting observation. People always complain that management treats them like a number and not an individual - and yet, the union itself insists on using a system where the only thing that is allowed to determine your value is your date of hire. People complain that management de-humanizes them, and yet the system the union insists on following seems to take any/and all individual value away from the employee outside of his hire date. Interesting.

DING DING DING we have a winner

Unions are necessary in aviation but they could have implemented policies in the past to help pilots today with issues with pay. Say union regional carriers had a barrier to entry clause in their contracts requiring 2000 hours miniumum for a regional FO. What would of this done to regional pay? My guess is it would go up.

worthless.

Unions themselves aren't the problem...their apathetic membership and blatant lack of unity is.

Good point!


... they were simply fired without the option of keeping their job with sacrifices.

very fair point, when united states its cutting 3000 jobs, those guys get the boot, and most likely will be seeing paycuts as well....bad mojo man, bad mojo.

Excellent question:If truly studying and serious, go read some labor law and the RLA and it's application to airlines. Next, study the people in office when airline pilots fought against managements. (You'll find airline pilots court little favor with either of the two parties) Both dislike us in general. RLA is designed for employers and to keep employees at work.
Next: read history on salary slashing/job cuts of engineers in the aerospace indusrty. Architects and lawyers find competition at the paralegal/internet side.
My analysis: We need unions, members need to be engaged. Weak unions indicative of weak members. However, can't dimiss the market forces at play in the equation. If something is going in, you make the best landing you can with the altitude and airspeed you have.
Anyway, that is the biggest challenge, however, just look at the UAL/UAX jumpseat issue. Pilots are carnivores, we also eat our own. Unions protect us from each other nearly as much as they give some measure of protection against management.

This is a fantastic question that I feel all unions (especially the AFL CIO) need to address. New people coming into todays job market have always been told that unions are bad and that is the reason for Americas decline. I have to disagree as the worker has taken a huge hit recently as corporate officers continue to receive huge bonuses for running their own companies into the ground. If that is not enough of a sound reason I think everyone should ask themselves "would I feel safe flying these aircraft if nobody was watching my back"? Unions have fought for years to increase safety and to provide relief to workers who would have been forced to fly aircraft that otherwise would have been grounded for damage.

One may tell you that it is your "choice" to fly aircraft that are unsafe for your passengers, cargo, and crew (while that is true), should you lose your job over that decision? Would you want your family flying on an airplane where the Captain had to make a go,no-go decision solely on how bad he was in need of a job instead of their years of experience? What if making such a choice prevented future employment at another airline?

Another question one might ask is about seniority at an airline. While upgrading and retaining pilots (and for that matter paying us) on merit alone might sound reasonable, what is to keep management from furloughing or even firing from the top of the list in order to save a buck? How would you feel if you invested 30-40 years only to be put out in the street in favor of a new-hire, by some CEO who has only been in the business and with the company for a few years and at the same time receiving a huge bonus for doing so?

The unions are facing many challenges ahead. A lot is based on public perception in which we have lost ground in recent years. The only way we can bring it back is through each member working together for a common goal. I'm going to volunteer more of my time to make this a reality.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by skywatch

That is an interesting observation. People always complain that management treats them like a number and not an individual - and yet, the union itself insists on using a system where the only thing that is allowed to determine your value is your date of hire. People complain that management de-humanizes them, and yet the system the union insists on following seems to take any/and all individual value away from the employee outside of his hire date. Interesting.

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Agreed. It does make one think.
The unions do lump all pilots into one basket when it comes to hiring; everyone's the same skill-wise. You can never tell your employer "you can't fire me, my experience is valuable to this company," because to them your are just pilot #7845. The system seems very dehumanizing. This is what keeps professionals from getting screwed pay-wise: they know how to market themselves. In the case of lawyers, pharmacists, accountants, etc., they market their skills individually and get paid for it. BUT If their company goes belly-up, they're SOL. The question is whether it is better to be SOL and unemployed, or employed at reduced pay. I think SOL is better in the long term because it's easier to get another job than it is to raise pay after it has been lowered. Few people are permanently unemployed. Times are tough, but I'd rather they be tough temporarily than permanently.

I see unions as a double-edged sword. They can protect you from management abuse, but they can get annoying as well. The "seniority system" prevents ass-kissing brownnosers from getting ahead on their stupid charm, but it also can be problematic in the case of mergers. The dehumanizing system of employment seems silly, but employees are given the choice to determine their own situation in times of crisis as opposed to being fired outright.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 1forflying

Unions have fought for years to increase safety and to provide relief to workers who would have been forced to fly aircraft that otherwise would have been grounded for damage.

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A great example of the good a good union can do, and a reason why I am not anti-union. But I feel some unions (like the teachers' union) have abused their power, while others have given theirs completely away. Unions have a time and a place, the question is finding out where and when.

Could the prevailing anti-labor, anti-union sentiment in the USA be the problem?

Could unbridled, shameless corporate greed be the problem?

Could failed "trickle-down" economic policies be the problem (consumers cannot spend money if they aren't able to earn any money!)

Could the average consumer's sense of entitlement to cheap products be the problem?

Just so we are clear, it is the shameless corporate greed that is the problem and leads to our number one issue - pilots need to make more money...right?:rolleyes::D