If You Fly For A "Regional" Airline, READ THIS POST!
03-08-2006, 06:20 PM
#1
Guest
Posts: n/a
If You Fly For A "Regional" Airline, READ THIS POST!
This is an excerpt from the most recent ALPA blast-mail...
"Airline managements persist in arguing that, after a bankrupt airline has rejected our contract, the National Mediation Board and the Railway Labor Act, which they insist played no role in the bankruptcy process, are somehow now magically reinstalled to force airline workers into a modern form of indentured servitude," said Capt. Woerth.
"While both Northwest and Delta cases have received national news media coverage, the case that seems destined to fully chart the depths of these uncharted waters is Mesaba Airlines," said Capt. Woerth. "The fight that Mesaba pilots face is simply the most egregious any ALPA pilot group has faced these last few years for a wide variety of reasons."
Capt. Woerth urged members to watch what happens at the three airlines, suggesting that it was a pivotal moment for the airline piloting profession. He said that circumstances would probably force a confrontation between labor and management within the next few weeks.
"You should be paying close attention to these battles," said Capt. Woerth. "If your fellow pilots stand up for justice, it is in your best interest to back them up. The legal fight over pilots' rights as American citizens may determine the course of all of our careers."
The reason that I am posting this is because this industry and our personal standards are under attack and some of you that are reading this are NOT HELPING!
For those of you that will fly ANY jet for ANY payscale, no matter who you screw or who you step on, I say only this...
Please stop the madness! I have recently been faced with a cutback at my airline and the flying that we do will be passed on to someone else, presumably the lowest bidder. Yes, I am refering to ExpressJet. I am aware that it is not "MY" flying, but it is CAL's flying that they are giving to the lowest bidder. But i have been with XJT a long time and I think we run a first class operation.
For those of you that fly for Mesa or Chautauqua or whoever, think about this. Since Comair's concessions, we (ExpressJet) are considered one of the highest paying "regionals" in the industry. If you want to fly for Continental, thats fine, but when your management comes to you for the deal, dont except ANYTHING less than what CURRENT ExpressJet Pilots are getting for that flying. By accepting less, you may preserve your own job for a small time, but you will drag down the entire industry and ALL regional pilots will have less bargaining power because of you. And one day, when you yourselves are undercut, you'll be just as angry as I am, and you'll have no one to blame but yourselves.
Just ask yourselves this question, "If you lower your standards just a little this time in order to get someone elses flying, in 5 years, when someone else lowers their standards to get YOUR flying, how will you feel?"
I fear the day will come when we have, in an effort to preserve ANY flying job we can, lowered the bar so far that you and I will be earning minimum wage. Sound nuts? Think about the direction we are headed and look 10, 12, 15 years into the future. Oil at $100, $150, $175 per barrel perhaps.
Personally, I dream of the day when ALL pilots stand up and walk away in unity and disgust. Airline managers and executives have run a fear campaign through the airline pilot community that would make even George W. Bush proud. They have scared all of us into a retreat in pay and benefits that will benefit only a select few who hold the stocks and options. They preach costs and bankruptcy and cutbacks in order to save the airline, then they take MILLIONS from the federal goverment in relief and you never see any of that money back. When will it end?
Stop this downward spiral and madness, stand up for a decent wages and benefits and SUPPORT YOUR FELLOW AIRLINE PILOTS BY NOT UNDERMINING THEIR BARGAINING POWER TO SAVE YOURSELF A SEAT!
"Airline managements persist in arguing that, after a bankrupt airline has rejected our contract, the National Mediation Board and the Railway Labor Act, which they insist played no role in the bankruptcy process, are somehow now magically reinstalled to force airline workers into a modern form of indentured servitude," said Capt. Woerth.
"While both Northwest and Delta cases have received national news media coverage, the case that seems destined to fully chart the depths of these uncharted waters is Mesaba Airlines," said Capt. Woerth. "The fight that Mesaba pilots face is simply the most egregious any ALPA pilot group has faced these last few years for a wide variety of reasons."
Capt. Woerth urged members to watch what happens at the three airlines, suggesting that it was a pivotal moment for the airline piloting profession. He said that circumstances would probably force a confrontation between labor and management within the next few weeks.
"You should be paying close attention to these battles," said Capt. Woerth. "If your fellow pilots stand up for justice, it is in your best interest to back them up. The legal fight over pilots' rights as American citizens may determine the course of all of our careers."
The reason that I am posting this is because this industry and our personal standards are under attack and some of you that are reading this are NOT HELPING!
For those of you that will fly ANY jet for ANY payscale, no matter who you screw or who you step on, I say only this...
Please stop the madness! I have recently been faced with a cutback at my airline and the flying that we do will be passed on to someone else, presumably the lowest bidder. Yes, I am refering to ExpressJet. I am aware that it is not "MY" flying, but it is CAL's flying that they are giving to the lowest bidder. But i have been with XJT a long time and I think we run a first class operation.
For those of you that fly for Mesa or Chautauqua or whoever, think about this. Since Comair's concessions, we (ExpressJet) are considered one of the highest paying "regionals" in the industry. If you want to fly for Continental, thats fine, but when your management comes to you for the deal, dont except ANYTHING less than what CURRENT ExpressJet Pilots are getting for that flying. By accepting less, you may preserve your own job for a small time, but you will drag down the entire industry and ALL regional pilots will have less bargaining power because of you. And one day, when you yourselves are undercut, you'll be just as angry as I am, and you'll have no one to blame but yourselves.
Just ask yourselves this question, "If you lower your standards just a little this time in order to get someone elses flying, in 5 years, when someone else lowers their standards to get YOUR flying, how will you feel?"
I fear the day will come when we have, in an effort to preserve ANY flying job we can, lowered the bar so far that you and I will be earning minimum wage. Sound nuts? Think about the direction we are headed and look 10, 12, 15 years into the future. Oil at $100, $150, $175 per barrel perhaps.
Personally, I dream of the day when ALL pilots stand up and walk away in unity and disgust. Airline managers and executives have run a fear campaign through the airline pilot community that would make even George W. Bush proud. They have scared all of us into a retreat in pay and benefits that will benefit only a select few who hold the stocks and options. They preach costs and bankruptcy and cutbacks in order to save the airline, then they take MILLIONS from the federal goverment in relief and you never see any of that money back. When will it end?
Stop this downward spiral and madness, stand up for a decent wages and benefits and SUPPORT YOUR FELLOW AIRLINE PILOTS BY NOT UNDERMINING THEIR BARGAINING POWER TO SAVE YOURSELF A SEAT!
Last edited by StearmanDriver; 03-08-2006 at 06:29 PM.
03-08-2006, 09:25 PM
#2
Prime Minister/Moderator
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Engines Turn Or People Swim
Posts: 39,261
I understand where you're coming from, but those of us who are operating under a sh*tty contract do not have the option of refusing to fly if told to do so. OK, I can refuse, but they would simply junior man somebody else. There a plenty of 300 hour PFT kids just waiting for a $13,000 airline job.
Our only recourse is longer term solutions:
Mesa killed freedom in 2003, their next contract should improve their situation and reduce their management's ability to undercut other airlines..
TSA is fighting GoJet, not sure about Chatuaqa and Republic.
A lot of this has to do with mainline: They need to toe the godd@mn line on scope...regionals don't get anything bigger than 50 seats, period. NWA is trying real hard, hopefully they can kill or rein in SJets. The people who have some leverage need to exercise it; first-year regional FOs who are up to their @sses in debt are not going to refuse to fly on principle unless it's struck work.
Our only recourse is longer term solutions:
Mesa killed freedom in 2003, their next contract should improve their situation and reduce their management's ability to undercut other airlines..
TSA is fighting GoJet, not sure about Chatuaqa and Republic.
A lot of this has to do with mainline: They need to toe the godd@mn line on scope...regionals don't get anything bigger than 50 seats, period. NWA is trying real hard, hopefully they can kill or rein in SJets. The people who have some leverage need to exercise it; first-year regional FOs who are up to their @sses in debt are not going to refuse to fly on principle unless it's struck work.
03-08-2006, 10:56 PM
#3
On Reserve
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Posts: 17
so exactly who are you point fingers at about the xpress jet flying anyways.... I know alot of carriers flying for less than Xjet's contract currently and whoever wins that flying will not gain anything by refusing any new flying... whoever refuses will only be outbid by someone else... its a never ending chain. Besides that fact, I do beleive that the PILOTS have no SAY anyways!! Management has the final say on any contract bid regardless. I do still believe there must be a minimum contract standard for all regionals!! don't beat on me I only speak from what I have seen in the past and what looks like the UNFORTUNATE future
03-09-2006, 01:00 AM
#4
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2006
Position: B-737NG preferably in first class with a glass of champagne and caviar
Posts: 5,908
I agree with you Steam Driver. This has been going on since the advent of aviation. Like an unemployed individual with a sign on his lap, “Will work for food.”
In the mid 70s when I was in college, I had a deal with a VIASA captain to ferry crop dusters on a periodic basis to South America from Oklahoma. I made some pretty decent cash too. At that time, furloughed pilots were on the streets looking for anything. My group of 5 fellow pilots was canned from the South American importing operation. Some furloughed Eastern pilots did it for just about nothing. You know the old saying, “Nothing personal… but business is business.” Can’t blame the VIASA chap… increases his profit margin. These guys, who displaced my group, just wanted to stay current. How about that?!?!
People… the lunatics have been running the asylum for years and years. The madness will never stop as long as there is an ample supply of body to fill seats for the right price. You need to go directly to the source of where these new pilots are coming from. You must hawk your cause and try to win over these COMAIR Academy students, MESA School students, or EMBRY RIDDLE students why he or she, who have spent $40,000 plus dollars why they shouldn’t take a job at one of these commuters even at $13,000 per year. Good luck Steam Driver… you’ll need it.
In the mid 70s when I was in college, I had a deal with a VIASA captain to ferry crop dusters on a periodic basis to South America from Oklahoma. I made some pretty decent cash too. At that time, furloughed pilots were on the streets looking for anything. My group of 5 fellow pilots was canned from the South American importing operation. Some furloughed Eastern pilots did it for just about nothing. You know the old saying, “Nothing personal… but business is business.” Can’t blame the VIASA chap… increases his profit margin. These guys, who displaced my group, just wanted to stay current. How about that?!?!
People… the lunatics have been running the asylum for years and years. The madness will never stop as long as there is an ample supply of body to fill seats for the right price. You need to go directly to the source of where these new pilots are coming from. You must hawk your cause and try to win over these COMAIR Academy students, MESA School students, or EMBRY RIDDLE students why he or she, who have spent $40,000 plus dollars why they shouldn’t take a job at one of these commuters even at $13,000 per year. Good luck Steam Driver… you’ll need it.
03-09-2006, 06:21 AM
#6
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2005
Position: ERJ-145 FO
Posts: 139
As a recent "fast track" grad, I doubt there was anything you could have told me that would have affected my decision to fly. That being said, had the entry-level wages been less, I doubt in my situation I could have gone forward. I am still as green as they come, but at least now I am willing to listen to the wisdom you experienced people pass on here. Fast track programs are here to stay. All one can do in any situation is pass on guidance and information... but you have to wait until people are willing to listen.
03-09-2006, 06:40 AM
#7
Guest
Posts: n/a
Well, via our Capacity Purchase Agreement, CAL can pull 25% of our flying and give it to the lowest bidder about every three years. So in short, if that continues to happen (read when that happens), if we find no one else to fly for ExpressJet will slowly cease to exist. We all know what happens when a "regional" tried to start its own brand as a low cost carrier, so that option is out.
thowe21,
I will say this in the most respectful way possible. That mentality of "pilots have no say" is exactly why this profession is going down the tubes. You are basically saying that you will show up and fly regardless of what mgmt pays you. YOU DO HAVE A SAY every time you put on that uniform and get on the airplane.
captjns is absolutely right, the education of this serious dilemma starts with the prospective newhires. But it also rests with us to stand up. This is why I consider Gojet pilots just as much scabs as Freedom pilots and any pilot that crosses a picket line. Just because you dont cross a picket line doesn't mean that you arent undercutting another pilot for his job and putting people on the street.
The only reason GoJets and Freedom pilots want union representation now is so that they can protect the jobs they have manipulated away from others and slithered into.
If I had my perfect world, ALL current and prospective airline pilots would have to be a member of a union before getting hired. Think about how this business and profession would be different if ALL OF US said "enough" and refused to work for these people and their concessions. Railway labor act be damned.
To just walk away and KNOW that there weren't people waiting in lines down and around the corner to fill your seat for less money would feel awesome.
To Know that you have thousands of pilots with enough dignity and respect for themselves and others that they wouldn't be so hypocritical as to do anything to fly a plane.
To have a unified and unbreakable power that the executives and managers of these companies would have to actually compensate us appropriately and actually manage the airline's money.
Think about how good that would feel to have a career that was rewarding again. To have a career that you came to work and earned good money and benefits while also earning the respect of standing tall for yourself and others in a hard fight for what you believe is right.
Now think about how easily manipulated we have become and how molded into the corporate mindset we have allowed ourselves to be.
Think about the smile on your executives faces when you sign on the dotted line that ensures you less money and benefits for you and your families while they GO TO THE BANK AND CASH A 7 FIGURE CHECK!
But sadly, this dreamworld will never happen unless each and every pilot looks in the mirror and realizes that they are not just looking at themselves, but that the reflection they see is that of tens of thousands of other pilots that need eachothers support to turn this race to the bottom around, and restore the pride and respect of our profession.
thowe21,
I will say this in the most respectful way possible. That mentality of "pilots have no say" is exactly why this profession is going down the tubes. You are basically saying that you will show up and fly regardless of what mgmt pays you. YOU DO HAVE A SAY every time you put on that uniform and get on the airplane.
captjns is absolutely right, the education of this serious dilemma starts with the prospective newhires. But it also rests with us to stand up. This is why I consider Gojet pilots just as much scabs as Freedom pilots and any pilot that crosses a picket line. Just because you dont cross a picket line doesn't mean that you arent undercutting another pilot for his job and putting people on the street.
The only reason GoJets and Freedom pilots want union representation now is so that they can protect the jobs they have manipulated away from others and slithered into.
If I had my perfect world, ALL current and prospective airline pilots would have to be a member of a union before getting hired. Think about how this business and profession would be different if ALL OF US said "enough" and refused to work for these people and their concessions. Railway labor act be damned.
To just walk away and KNOW that there weren't people waiting in lines down and around the corner to fill your seat for less money would feel awesome.
To Know that you have thousands of pilots with enough dignity and respect for themselves and others that they wouldn't be so hypocritical as to do anything to fly a plane.
To have a unified and unbreakable power that the executives and managers of these companies would have to actually compensate us appropriately and actually manage the airline's money.
Think about how good that would feel to have a career that was rewarding again. To have a career that you came to work and earned good money and benefits while also earning the respect of standing tall for yourself and others in a hard fight for what you believe is right.
Now think about how easily manipulated we have become and how molded into the corporate mindset we have allowed ourselves to be.
Think about the smile on your executives faces when you sign on the dotted line that ensures you less money and benefits for you and your families while they GO TO THE BANK AND CASH A 7 FIGURE CHECK!
But sadly, this dreamworld will never happen unless each and every pilot looks in the mirror and realizes that they are not just looking at themselves, but that the reflection they see is that of tens of thousands of other pilots that need eachothers support to turn this race to the bottom around, and restore the pride and respect of our profession.
03-09-2006, 06:41 AM
#8
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,425
Originally Posted by ERJ135
So what would happen to XJT if CAL gave their flying to someone else??
Who would they codeshare with?
Who would they codeshare with?
03-09-2006, 07:15 AM
#9
Self Employed.
Joined APC: May 2005
Position: Corporate Pilot
Posts: 7,119
Still
StearmanDriver
You know that I am a huge fan, and we all know that what you speak of is true. It seems to me however that it is the young new hire that would take most of the brunt of an action as you mentioned. Union or no in the end we all are a union of one and have to act in our own best short term interest. The industry has simply too many hopefuls. You would have to convince student pilots to give up on their dream without even getting a chance at it. How are you going to ask potential new hires to fall on the sword for the betterment of those left behind? What about working pilots? Could you asses a lottery system where every third pilot has to resign in order to strengthen the ranks? From your position it is easy to make those choices. You have satisfied your dream, you have a strong resume to fall back on. Most don't. They have maybe one chance to get their career off the ground. It would be a very hard sell to convince them to rock the boat before ever starting.
Our problem isn't limited to any single company. It is national and becoming world wide in scope. If Expressjet will not do the flying for the price offered then someone else will. If an American company can't meet the cost cuts then perhaps a european company with Chinese crews would. In the end any of us has only one vote. I think we all need to look in the mirror and ask ourselves where is the industry going, and do I really want to be here in five years? Wishful thinking and strong words are reassuring but an honest look into the future might be sobering for ourselves and the next generation of pilots.
SKyHigh
As mentioned before flying is less of a career and more of a working hobby anymore. New pilots care less and less about wages since they are here primarily for the experience of being a jet pilot.
You know that I am a huge fan, and we all know that what you speak of is true. It seems to me however that it is the young new hire that would take most of the brunt of an action as you mentioned. Union or no in the end we all are a union of one and have to act in our own best short term interest. The industry has simply too many hopefuls. You would have to convince student pilots to give up on their dream without even getting a chance at it. How are you going to ask potential new hires to fall on the sword for the betterment of those left behind? What about working pilots? Could you asses a lottery system where every third pilot has to resign in order to strengthen the ranks? From your position it is easy to make those choices. You have satisfied your dream, you have a strong resume to fall back on. Most don't. They have maybe one chance to get their career off the ground. It would be a very hard sell to convince them to rock the boat before ever starting.
Our problem isn't limited to any single company. It is national and becoming world wide in scope. If Expressjet will not do the flying for the price offered then someone else will. If an American company can't meet the cost cuts then perhaps a european company with Chinese crews would. In the end any of us has only one vote. I think we all need to look in the mirror and ask ourselves where is the industry going, and do I really want to be here in five years? Wishful thinking and strong words are reassuring but an honest look into the future might be sobering for ourselves and the next generation of pilots.
SKyHigh
As mentioned before flying is less of a career and more of a working hobby anymore. New pilots care less and less about wages since they are here primarily for the experience of being a jet pilot.
Last edited by SkyHigh; 03-09-2006 at 07:24 AM.
03-09-2006, 07:17 AM
#10
Prime Minister/Moderator
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Engines Turn Or People Swim
Posts: 39,261
Originally Posted by StearmanDriver
The only reason GoJets and Freedom pilots want union representation now is so that they can protect the jobs they have manipulated away from others and slithered into.
The current freedom airlines is just an operating certificate for Mesa, same union, list, pay, and rules. I don't think that any of the original "A-listers" are still at freedom. Everybody there is just a regular ALPA guy/girl.
The Mesa pilots are still suffering the consequences of the original freedom issue, since they gave up almost everything on the last contract to kill Freedom A. Hopefully that can be corrected next year.
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