To buy a TWIN or not.
 

Hi,

Figured i would ask you guys at regionals a questions regarding flight time. I am currently a soph. at university. I am debating on buying an airplane, a twin. I am looking at spending 45-70K (70 is the MAX), on a twin. I will only keep it for about 150-300hrs. It probably will not happen untill next year or so. So here are my questions to you guys,

1. What type of a twin would you recomend
2. Is is a bad thing if i do not have many hours on being a cfi (i am not cfi yet, just finishing instrument)
3. If i do get a twin, i will have about 600tt, with 300multi, would it be pretty easy to get a job couple month after finishing school.

I just want to finish school and start working as soon as possible for an airline. Any imput would be great.

Thank you

edik

there are programs where you can buy time for a whole lot less than that. Or you could always get payed to get those hours......

I know i can get paid if i get my multi, but there is no garantee of students (unless you for for like UND, ATP, ERAU, or some other busy flight school). Also i would have to get my MEI after i graduate, and i am hoping to be applying for jobs when i graduate. Also i will sell the plane, so i will not lose much money, if not make little.

edik

EDIK,
I thought about doing the same thing you are at about the same point in my career at UND. The conclusion I reached was that even splitting it 3-4 ways with friends, the costs were still way more than it would cost to buy some block time in a twin or get your MEI. Insurance is the biggest problem you are going to find with very low total time and multi-experience. Maintenance is another large expense. If you decide to do it, try and find a partner who is an A&P.

1 Where can you find a twin at 70k? Junkyard..maybe
2 Get your ratings - cfi for a while
3 Plan on instructing or something to get experience, still why not shoot resumes around - never hurts. But get experience.

Just a thought that comes to my mind...(no offense)

Guy with a lot of money little/no experience flying crappy twin (or any twin) = statistic!

Also - Buying/owning a twin or any airplane isnt cheap your better off with something more realistic and probably safer like getting your cfi time and experience and then buying craploads of time at a legitimate twin rental place and splitting the cost.

Also i dont think you are looking at the whole situation correctly about getting an airline job there are many pilots out there with much more experience and time that are looking as well. I would like to have graduated and got a FO job flying jets right out of college too - its not realistic.

Almost any place you go will hire you with an MEI because MEIs are so hard to hold onto. I was almost offered a job on the spot when a guy misunderstood when I told him I had my multi-engine rating and he thought I meant MEI. I would say relax, enjoy the ride. I was just like you but I started instructing at UND at the start of my senior year and have enjoyed every minute of it (plus it makes you a hell of a lot smarter and a lot better pilot). Now, here I am less than a year after graduating and I start training at XJT in 2 weeks. Just relax.:)

Punkpilot48,
You didn't just interview with ExpressJet, did you? I thought I remembered your tag saying you were a CFI at Riddle.

My dad is an A&P, so that will help me out. I also have a guy that is is really intersted in buying one with me. He is also from CA so we can fly home together and log some time. Tickets cost about 400-600 bucks GFK-SNA, so it will be little more money but i would be logging time. I doubt it if i want to stay and teach at UND, thats if i get hired. The only thing that seems would be hard to get over is lack of experience or lack of teaching time.


edik

Thats good that your dad can do most of the maintenace. Is he an IA too? That would save you heaps of money. I'm sure a lot of guys are interested in buying a plane with you. I would be curious to see how interested he still is when it comes time to plunk down $35-40K. Also, you are going to need a fairly high-end twin to make it through the mountains safely. When you start 325, you'll learn all about single-engine service cielings. The first thing I would do if I were you (which I was about 18 months ago) is shop around for insurance with your experience level. I think you'll find it incredibly expensive if not impossible to get. Also, with 100LL going for about $3/gal depending on the twin its going to cost you $60-100/hr to fly the thing. That is money you DON'T get back when you sell it. Make sure you crunch the number before you jump into this.

Then teach somewhere else! There are TONS of other places that need instructors. Go freelance and then you can keep more of what you charge. UND isn't the only place to flight instruct. I instructed back in California too and had a blast. That being said, I make fairly decent money at UND for being a flight instructor. In fact, I will be taking a paycut when I head off to a regional.

I sure hope he is not at Express. I think he was the one wishing TSA got XJT flying so he would move up faster. What a Cool-aid new hire that dosen't know ****

Who? Me? Kind of a confusing statement, i dont know if it was for me or not.

edik

I think he was talking about punkpilot48

It was for FNG punkpilot48

Congrats on the XJT job, good to see instructors finally moving. I figure UND is has lost/losing over 50 this spring.

Congrads on the job. XJT is a good company from what i read here. I guess i can take a chill pill and not worry so much about the future. I do want to be a CFI just not longer then a year. Oh well what ever happens happens.

edik

Uh.....

If you could find where it said I wanted xjt to lose its flying go ahead. My best friend is there I wouldnt want him to lose his job. I was just passing on information that I had heard. And also I was saying if an airline I am working for gets another airlines routes Im not going to refuse flights. This case just happend to be xjt could be an example.

No I turned down an xjt interview great company but I want to be sure everything stays the same for me.

I am in ground school for an airline. I didnt instruct at riddle though.

I know a guy who bought a twin (he was always worried about it breaking); he eventually got hired at United.

It has been done in the past, but that was long before there were all these pilot mills that need MEIs badly. I assume you can get an MEI job with less than 100 hours ME.

The advantages...
1) Used twin prices are WAY down...easily in $40-50K range. This is due to sky-high fuel prices.
2) You could buy one that has enough time on the engines to do what you want...fly your butt off, then sell it before TBO.
3) Having an A&P in the family is a big plus.


Disadvantages...
1) Insurance (can you even get it?)
2) If an engine breaks, your airplane is worth almost nothing, unless you spend $30K+ to get it fixed.
3) Airlines will accept recreational twin time, but MEI or Freight would be better.

Apache
 

I bought a Piper Apache with two friends. We paid $21,500 for it. Since it had O-320's we were able to get an autogas stc. Parts were cheap and maintenance was simple. Owners can actually do a lot of maintenance without being an A&P. I was already an MEI and instructed my friends, partners and others that I solicited from the paper. Whenever possible we would fly together and both log the time since I was an MEI. In the end we sold it 9 months later for a small profit and all of my flying was free, 300 hours. We never got insurance. All three of us went on to the regionals thanks in part to that Apache.

SKyHigh

I got my MEI and was teaching multi students with just shy of 50 hours multi-engine. If you have an MEI, you can pretty much take your pick on where you want to work. However, the amount of flying you do will vary depending on where you go.

Find someone at the local airport that owns a twin and offer to pay for gas if you can fly with them. That way you won't have to pay for insurance, hangar, mx, etc., and you won't have to deal with the headaches and stress of a/c ownership. I hooked up with a 135 operation and rode along on part 135 flights, and they let my fly the part 91 legs. Even though I could only log the part 91 legs, I got some free time in Barons, Queen Airs, and a King Air (all PIC). Lots of 135 guys would be happy to have some company and an extra set of eyes in the plane, as long as their OpSpecs allow it.

WOw. How does a college student have $45K? When I was in college, I could barely keep $2K

The math doesn't make any sense. You can rent a twin from $150-200 an hour. Based on the hours you want to get out of this venture, you'd spend between $22500 on the low side or $60000 on the high side. Some places will even give you a block time discount which will bring that cost down.

I used to be the president of a local flying club, and believe me, you do NOT want to own that aircraft. You must consider the cost of insuring that airplane, tie down fees (or hangar fees), AvGas, oil, and most importantly, maintenance. I know that you mentioned that your father is an A&P but that will ONLY save you on labor. What if your Nav/Com breaks? Can he fix that? What if you needed to replace a DG or the Attitude Indicator? Can your father fix that? If the items are not fixable, guess what? You need to pay out money to get new replacement parts.

Since most regionals are looking for that magical minimum of 100 ME time anyway, why kill yourself trying to impress them with 300 hours when you don't have to? If you want to separate yourself from the competition, go get yourself 150-200 hours. I think 300 is overkill. Plus, you can use the saved money to fly the single engine on cross country ventures that will give you more opportunities to kill yourself (read: Solo XC PIC time) and that will look better on the books anyway.

Bottom line, airplane ownership is very expensive. Most people don't look at the incidentals that translate to big dollars. If you still have this itch to waste all that money, then buy the plane and fly the balls out of it everyday. For every day that plane sits on the ramp not flying, the more costly it becomes to you.

Where are you located?

Flying Ninja is right... People forget about the extra costs. I'm Navy pilot with an A&P, and even with my pay as a LCDR and being able to do my own maint... it was too much. I wanted to get a plane and looked into all the options. I bought an old Mooney after looking at several twins. When you do your annual.... pray to the airplane gods. An older twin can run-up $5k-$20k at an annual in an instant.... and if you don't fix it... the plane can't be sold or flown... My Mooney was with insurance, hangar/tie-down, and routine maint was costing between $450-$600/month before I even started it to go flying (less if you tie down instead of hangar it.. but that destroys your investment). Then consider your engine burn will be 9-10 gal/hour if you're lucky (at$3/per gallon). If you have one big money item break... you're done... how much is the purchase tax on it...? Go fly with a piston cargo company like airnet or flight express who has C210s and Barons.. Get your time the old fashion way.
You may get lucky with a plane.. but the risk far out weighs the benefits.. One good job will fulfill all of your flight hour needs.

If you want to build your time.. try this place.... They need a pilot to instruct and fly freight in their Baron...

http://www.americanflightservicespa.com/page16.shtml

Job Openings
Full Time CFI Position with Multi-Engine, Commercial, Instrument Rating. (MEI and CFII preferred but not required)

Duties: Full-Time Instruction with 25 hours per month Multi-Engine time in a BE-58 flying cross-country freight.

Please contact Keith Bauder @ American Flight Services, 610-376-5447.

Good points. I am in ND (UND), but live in Newport (CA). My dad just got (partnership @ SNA) on a B33, so i would be able to fly that for a single engine time. I will probably come out with anywhere with 20-45hrs of multi when i graduate, depends how well i do. I dont really want to stay at UND and get my MEI, i want to come back to SoCal as soon as i can. There are some nice planes at SNA, maybe i can hang around and hope someone with a twin likes me :D , i am oging to try to get a job at the airport this summer after i come back from summer school. All i really need is like 100 or more TT on multi like you guys said. I just dont want to teach for a long time, since i will be graduating when i am 23, almost 24, so i will be older then most grads.


edik

Not sure what your hurry is. A year or 2 does not make a whole lot of difference in the grand scheme of things. If all you are going to need is 50-75 multi hours just go buy the time and spilt it with a friend. It will save you money and the headaches, like someone else said. But seriously, "23, almost 24"? You have all the time in the world pal. A year of flight instructing (especially with an MEI) will probably be better pay than at a regional AND you just might learn something on the way:D

I just wanna know how you are able to throw down 40k on an airplane, im a UND student and i worry about just making my car insurance payments each month

Well you save money, and if you dont have enough you take a loan. And yes i will be able to get it. I have been saving for a while (since 8th grade, and i have had like 4 jobs, getting money is the least of my worries.)

edik

Dont invest in aviation. You will never get a return of investments. Just when you get your 200-300hrs , who knows the airlines may require you to have shuttle commander time, lunar landings etc. My point is you will be better of investing in real estate,stocks & flipping it for profit. Still pursue aviation, but build a nest egg to pay the bills. It makes no sense to spend 70K to buy an airplane for multi time so you could get a job at a regional for 18K a year. There is no need to rush for an airline job. This is not the same industry any more. Many regionals are only asking for 100hrs of mutli these days. You could get that in an Fbo for free.