Preferential Bidding....Good or Bad???
 

Aight this goes out to all you RAH guys and anyone else using the Navtec Bidding Software.

Air Wisconsin's Cronies That Be.....are trying to push us to Drop our current FLICA Line bidding for the Navtec PBS. They've come up with this whole elaborate presentation on how great it is...the problem I see with it is that we will lose our trip touching for vacation (one of the reasons why the company wants this)

Anywho.....to any of you guys who use it....how do you like it....does it only really benefit the senior guys???

Anything you guys can add would be greatly appreciated...

PS- Im starting this thread because im sick and tired of looking at posts from Pro-Gojet pilots and other assorted Ignorant types :p

Personally, I like it. The thing I like most is being able to easily avoid things you do not like, e.g. other pilots, layovers, check-in times, etc. It makes bidding and trip trading much much easier.. It would be even easier if we were properly staffed.

If you have an incompetent, criminal management pbs sucks. Too much behind-the-scenes manipulation.
If you have management that somewhat respects their pilots, prefbid can be a good thing. simple enough? :)

I agree, I like it a lot. Once you learn the systems defaults and how they can restrict you from layer to layer you'll learn to work it to your advantage. I'm a JR line holding CA (I bid around 59 out of 71 lines in FAT) and I average 90-95 hours of credit on around 80-85 hours of block, commutable 4 day trips (BTW I live in ATL) and 14-15 days off per month. I also got 6 days off over Labor Day and Sundays off (NFL) for the entire month. Not bad for a JR CA.

i like pref bid as well. But some of the fall backs are
1)it takes about 4 or 5 months to realize how to get the most out of your bid.
2) company messes with the bid sometimes ie. holding trips with CKA for FOS on IOE
3) Bidding windows will sometime hose you! say the min window is 82 hours well it gives you four four days worth 81 hours and 45 minutes, it will throw another trip on there to get into the window and sometimes you have 2 to 3 less days off than most people in your bid range just for 6 hours more of credit.
4)if you ask for too much and dont get it it can really screw up your whole month
5) at RAH all your vacation and training is preawarded so those months are interesting. I had vacation and a PC in May and got stuck on reserve with 14 months of seniority! Oh well

But some of the good things are avoiding employee numbers, bidding specific overnights with time ranges, i always bid SBN overnights IF layover is > than 15 hours, beeing able to bid average credits, you can bid to fly with certain people, avoid landings in TOL, check in and out times, trip credits.

The thing i understand most about any pref bid system is it works for the really senior and the really junior, any one in the middle is kind of a toss up. The senior get exactly what they want, the junior dont expect to get anything so they get what they want in a sense and the people in the middle get a little bit of both

A RAH f/o in PHL told me he had line bidding (cant remember if it was flica or not) before he went to RAH, and liked it a lot more than PBS!

anybody here has gone from line bidding to PBS that can compare the two??

PBS is great when it works and sucks when it doesn't. Sometimes the company can change a thing or two around that really make it work against you. Some months I have 17 days off with nothing but commutable trips then some months I have 6 day stretches where I have to get my own hotel in the middle. I can't explain why but there have been instances where the computer simply didn't follow the rules. Over all I like it but as mentioned above you have to learn how to use it. Every month is something new. You just have to keep trying till it work out for you.

me....seems to be really good if you are super senior or super junior. Middle of the road is a crap shoot. And if you have morons in management like I do, they tweak parameters and wont tell you about it, so you maynot always get the big picture and be able to bid accordingly. I will say that I do like pref bid better now, but i'm top 15% company wide and top 40% in base....but you are definitely more at the whim of management, such as no more bidding around/over training days and vacations.

See....now im in the top 10 in my base which would be good for me....however...like i said earlier...I dont wanna lose trip touching....I think they are also trying to get away from trip/duty rigs as well...which would really suck. i turned 4 days vacation this month into 12 days off....im just afraid PBS wont be able to come close to that

My main problem with it is simple. How can we, as the pilot group make sure that management isn't messing around with it? How can we still have trip touching? With line bidding I know what I'm getting, usually isn't good anyways, but I know exactly what I'm bidding for, PBS to me seems like a crap shoot.

Oh ScaryKite, the Pats are great, just wanted to add that.

Republic's implementation of PBS sucks.

However, that is because they put in pre-built pairings and not the individual trips that would allow PBS more flexibility.

I have flown at places with both and overall, I like bidding lines better. (with the option drop/trade)

I had lines at Mesa...I have PBS now at Shuttle America. Granted I am top 10% in base now...but I MUCH prefer PBS. Even when I was more junior, I got a lot of little victories with PBS. Even if I couldn't get everything I wanted, I would end up getting something I wanted....ORF overnights to see the folks, day trips, etc.

Now that I am senior it is awesome...get the days off I want...Next month I only have one overnight (14 day trips and one 2 day trip).

PBS does take a little getting used to...there are a few neuances that will get you if you don't know what you are doing. After about 3 or 4 months of messing up your bid, you get the hand of it.

PBS is a fine system when you know what to ask for. I have many people ask me how to bid and I show them how and they come back to me and say, "I got a great line next month, thanks." You just have to know how to work the system in your favor. You need to see what people senior to you bid. You don't have access to their specific bid, but you can tell if they bid for weekends off, day trips vs. 4 day trips. All this can be done via the award. I have to agree, that the middle of the road bidder has a harder time bidding than the senior and most junior. Senior people get what they want and Junior just hope for the best. Middle of the road guys can screw themselves if not careful.

Junior thru middle of the pack have to be real careful to NOT ask for tooooo much... the way RAH has it set up it can slap you around pretty good if you are not careful. The top thirty percent or so can really work the system if they know how and put some time into learning to bid..... Junior guys can do okay too... just prioritize your wishes and bid accordingly....

I have to disagree with this. It is more about how you bid and how those senior to you bid, that will create the differences from month to month.

I see very few problems with how PBS works.

There is no substitute for knowing the exact schedule you are bidding for in advance, even if its a crappy one. PBS is at best just a preference bidding system, telling the company what you would hope to get and letting them build your schedule. Total BS in my opinion. Losing the option to drop trips that touch vacation is also bad news, dont give that up!!!!

If management is pushing for it, there's a red flag. Simple as that...

This is an example of a Pinnacle pilot trying to figure out prefbid... trying to bid... or even receiving his bid award with prefbid. Enjoy!

YouTube - Crazy German Kid

Prefbid is only as good as your company makes it. They set the parameters. It can be a good thing or it can be an awful thing.

man i havent seen that video in a while, WHAT A CLASSIC!

even more fun to watch the one thats properly translated :)

I will VOTE NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Are you kidding, not a chance will I vote yes to pbs

From what I've found, there are far more positives than negatives with PBS, for both sides. But don't shoot it down just because Mgmnt is pushing hard for it. Use that for your advantage and negotiate PBS rules such as if PBS builds an average domicile line of 85 hours or more then every minute scheduled above 85 is paid at 150% pay. This way Mgmnt can't force you to fly open time at straight pay when you’re short staffed.

Yes, PBS is an extremely effective tool when it comes to utilization both crew member and A/C. This can work in your favor once you learn the system, but only you know your Mgmnt team and if they're a bunch of shysters then vote NO. Without a good working relationship the system will end up working more in their favor than yours.

Ill be honest.....if the company was willing to pay 150% after 80 hours...id vote yes.....being that that is extremely unlikely.....i dont think it will get voted in.

They would have to sweeten the deal like you wouldnt believe in order for this pilot group to vote it in. Trip touching is worth its weight in gold.

Could PBS screw with trip and duty rigs as well???? I mean if we lost those....I'd burn the place down

No, PBS doesn't build the pairings/trips, it builds your line.

I have used both, and far prefer PBS. However...

1. The PBS parameters must be tightly controlled contractually. In order for this to happen your MEC, or their minions, must understand the system. Get this wrong, and life is not going to be so good for a while.

2. You MUST read the directions AND attend the training seminars AND particpate in whatever practice/training bids are run. If you attempt to do the typical guy thing and jump right in without reading the manual, be prepared to sacrifice several months of your life while you sort things out. I spent several unnecessary months on reserve...fortunately I was based in SLC and I like to ski :rolleyes: Me: Well, looks like reserve again in Feb. Wife: But I thought you were top 50%??? Me: I have to go catch my commute, have you seen my season pass?

3. Make sure you get automated trip dropping and swapping...that is an absolute godsend. Try to get contractual reserve staffing.


PBS will not affect pairing construction or rigs. It just builds lines out of available pairings.

If you have something like trip-touching for vacations, you will need to negotiate something to make up for that...obviously don't just give it away. Extra vacation days at a higher credit could make up for trip-touching. PBS should offer enough benefit to the company without concessions. Done correctly it should be a win-win.

I think I would like PBS better, but with our management I don't trust them enough to try it. If they really want it bad enough then surely we can get them to agree to rules we want as well as them. As of right now I would vote no, management has a lot of convincing to do.

I am a middle of the road junkie in base at RAH and came from MESA....far and aways PBS rocks for me. I have been stuck in denial mode a couple of times where the system will just give you anything as it failed to reach a line after so many attempts, but with proper trading I adverted a crappy month. I ended up probably better off, I love the fact I can bid trips with layovers anywhere including home! Also, I bid specific trips any make 2 layers of trips that make up my whole month and usually get many of those trips, below that commutable high time trips, then commutable then finally 4 day trips....with my style of bidding I am very happy!

My short experience at RAH ( S5...8 months ) with PBS was generally positive. Once you learn they system it really is very powerful.

Hey, every time I see your screen name, I think of w hore310. (Just a little humor, not to offend, kinda makes me laugh)

Anyhow, to respond to the original posters question:
I've been where they used line bidding, and I didn't like it so much. It always seemed as though I could NEVER find a line I wanted with exactly the needs I had, time off, good trips, etc.

Now, with PBS, granted it might take you a few months to get used to it and you might screw yourself a few months, but after a couple months, you kinda figure out what you did wrong and the lightbulb kind of clicks on 'how to screw PBS' and you start getting better skeds. Took me awhile, but I help people with bids when bid times comes and they're always saying "thanks".

Now that I'm in the top 35% in base, I get pretty much everything I want. I'd say about 95%, for months now I've gotten ALL I wanted. I tailor a bid accordingly, award days off I need, MIN SKED, avoid certain layovers I just CANT stand, etc....then 2 or 3 lines worth of trips I'd like to have, then generic crap like AWD DAYTRIPS 4 (then 3, then 2) if AVG DAILY CREDIT =>7 hrs, then a line same, 6.5 hrs., 6 hrs. etc.

My bid is usually somewhere between 20-30 lines long counting all the awds/avoids/trips/generic crap. It USUALLY stops around line 8-10, which is RIGHT where the lines of trips I want start.

It is great once you work the system and know how to use it. Much better (to me) than line-for-line bidding, but I think alot has to do with how YOUR company is going to set up the PBS system, that's the key.

Here's what I've heard from friends:

My friend at CAL, who I believe is the number 1 FO in EWR, said it was generally fine once he learned to use it.

My friend at American Eagle, conversely, said he and all the AMR pilots are vehemently against PBS and will forever lobby against it. His main reasons were becauce of the fear of management manipulation and the fact that it requires less overall staffing.