I agree, this is nothing but a mgmt screwjob! Pull the plug :mad:

Keep in mind that this deal hinges on MidEx being able to use their pilots to fly our aircraft through a dry lease later on down the line. The only way they can do that is with our union's approval. It's explicitly written in our contract. If our union says "No" it could throw the whole deal off.

I'm not sure where the mindset came from that current Midwest pilots would fly these airplanes. I don't even see that as plausable. The ONLY way they could is if they agree to concessions that would allow the transfer of "ownership" from RAH to this newly "dreamed up" certificate.

At BEST, this is a temp job for RAH pilots until Midwest shuts its doors and at worst, it is the end of the line for all but a handful of Midwest pilots until it's the end for all of them.

For Midwest to continue as an airline, the current pilots would have to give concessions that they won't make IMHO. This is a plan from Bedford to have someone else pay for his mistake on those 170's as much as possible for as long as possible.

This will not end well except for lawyers.

Even though it takes for ever getting a hold of Midwest on the phone to list; THEY ARE THE BEST AIRLINE I HAVE EVER HAD THE OPPORTUNITY TO RIDE ON! I can only hope that RAH or shuttle or chautauqua or whatever company you have over there to avoid scope clauses can hold up the customer service that Midwest has provided over the years.

They are truly a fantastic airline...oh and RAH F/As are ghetto....I know my company has some ghetto F/A's but honestly.....RAH has no hiring criteria for their F/As it never ceases to amaze me.

I too have ridden on Midwest several times and am very impressed with their quality product and excellent customer service! I remember when airtran first tried to take over you guys I was extremely ticked! I thought here is an awesome airline with an amazing product and such a viable part of the Milwaukee community and here comes airtran who wants to destroy an airline just to make a quick buck!

Let me assure you the mood amongst the pilot group here at RAH is of absolute disgust! Yeah its a dog eat dog world out there but none of us want to be used to force you guys into an unfair contract or worse! You have the support of most of the group here! In the near future We will see how it all pans out.

All I ask is communication between all involved pilot groups and their union representation so we know what's going on and what our options are!

And when that time comes my friends you just PM me with a time and date and I'll call in sick! Come up to MKE and stand on a line and hold a sign right there with you! that is if you'll have me!

To all Midwest crews you have my hope and support!

You only think you talk factual information. Here's my beef with your original post on this.

You sarcastically say that the poster can see the future of your company but cannot his own as if you knew or know the future of XJT or even what the future of RAH is for that matter.

Second, you say to the original poster to take a look at the CAL/XJT contract as if you've looked at it before. And then you say that XJT didn't have to sign that contract and could have just said no. The fact that XJT was whipsawed by CAL using SKW into signing that deal or lose ALL of the CAL flying is totally lost on you.

You even rhetorically said yourself, "Might as well watch mainlines all go out of business and put even more guys on the street" but yet ignore the fact that was what CAL was going to do to XJT if it didn't sign on the dotted line..."put even more guys on the street."

This is not a case of a pilot group rolling over and letting management "low ball" CAL's offer. The gun was on XJT's head and they blinked first. Now they are dealing with the ****ty deal that CAL shoved down their throat. To put in simpler terms for you, this wasn't a concession to keep or get new flying. This is a concession to stay in business because of what CAL did. It isn't as if we are compensated poorly and therefore can low ball bids because of it. You get it yet?

And lastly, if you deny the similarities between that and what is happening between RAH and Midwest then you certainly know less than I had given you credit for.

No doubt, RAH will disappoint on the customer service level. There are a lot of us that try hard but I always end up with at least one per crew (pilots and FA's combined) that just has no idea how to treat a customer. As for the FA's. well you get what you pay for. There is a culture (bred by Airways and United) that teaches them to think "i don't have to take schnit from YOU". Though I must say we ended up with a pretty good bunch in DEN for F9. Hopefully the MCI base will fill up with those who take pride in their work. It is possible.

I see no similarities b/t RAH/Midwest and the CAL/XJT deals. You leave out one important part of the history between CAL and XJT. XJT lost a RFP for CAL flying and defiantly kept the planes without a clue as to what they would do with them, to the surprise of everyone watching. At the time, the president stated that he would rather park the planes out on the ramp and burn them than watch someone else fly "his" planes (that were owned by and leased from CAL). So, then XJT announces the branded flying that was predicted by everyone except the mgmt of XJT and its kool aid satiated pilots to end in miserable failure. Two years later, XJT went from an exceptional company with a fat balance sheet full of cash to another broke airline, crippled by fuel costs, and in such dire straits that it was able to whipsawed by SKW/CAL into accepting a contract that it now admits is not economically feasible without significant concessions from labor.

So I see RAH/Midwest as a slimy deal between two managements that screws both pilot groups. Whereas I see XJT in a bed of its own management's making, through no fault of its pilots' mind you, but still very different.

I'll deny the similarities because this isn't a whipsaw on us. Secondly RAH isn't going for concession and sure as heck isn't losing money on it. You appear to be doing your best now to solidify my point which was the irony in the post. I bolded the part that points to it. Thank you for the support.

:eek:Does this mean they wont be flying into MCO ?

Yes it is a whipsaw. The RAH pilot group was used as a pawn to force Midwest pilots to fly for the lowest cost, knowing if they dont, mighty RAH and the E170 will come in and gobble up all of the rest of the flying. It's a whipsaw, black and white. Also, do you think good ol' bryan bedford could get concessions from people flying a "70 seat" for "50 seat" rates. I think not. Happy Flying.

Yes it appears to be a whipsaw and the folks at RAH aren't happy about it in the least. I'm not the spokeman for the pilot group but if any RAH pilots out there feel good about this deal speak up. Personally it made me throw up in my mouth a little.

MCI is the new base but we still fly there for Continental. Maybe it has to do with routes, not sure.

I didn't say it wasn't a whipsaw. I said it's not a whipsaw on us. Midwest wasn't the direct object of the post since it was written as a response to someone else. No I don't think BBB could get concessions because RAH is making money hand over fist and there's no way it would be considered.

Honestly how could the RAH pilots not feel used? They have been. This is a great example of why pilots dont give up scope, in its various forms. T.he test for you guys is going to be what you do about this. Everybody on here from the RAH pilot group says " oh its bad, we wont do it, its not fair etc..." Lets see if its talk not walk.

Your right, lets wait and see. In the mean time why don't you crack a beer and relax a bit and stop being a typical pilot pushing his holier than thou finger in our chest.

This whole fiasco is just leaving a bad taste in everyone's mouths, both sides. It is the nature of the beast, this industry, I feel. What if the shoe was on the other foot, would the comments be the same about "unity" between 2 totally different pilot groups?

With that being said what if, "I do STAND up and do something by refusing to go to work." Will the Midwest Pilot group pay my mortgage, feed my kids, pay the health insurance premium for my family, pay the special needs care one of my kids needs, pay my auto payment?? Will they support me then? Everyone talks about "supporting the other group" "refusing this flying", etc, etc, etc. Will you support me when I don't have a job? Hell no....and I wouldn't EXPECT you to, either. We can feel for you, understand your anger without being slandered because of what the CEO of our company (and your CEO) has done.

This is just plain bad. By us going to work and flying what our CEO has acquired does NOT mean we don't feel for the Midwest crews, at all. It means we are in an industry where we DON'T make the policy, we're in an industry where WE ARE ALL whipsaws, to some extent, we are ALL pawns, we're all just an employee number, with MANY MANY more in the wings waiting for the chance to have an employee number.

This just SUCKS, bottom line. I feel for the Midwest group, it makes me incredibly sick to my stomach. But I will NOT trade the backs of my familiy and their well-being, the shoe could be on the other foot. Sorry if you hate seeing me type that, but it doesn't make me unsympathetic at all.

And you leave almost all the history out.

This is the deal that CAL wanted before the release of the 69 aircraft. The XJT BOD couldn't agree to a non-profit deal so XJT called CAL on their bluff. CAL released the 69 aircraft and gave some of that flying to RAH. Eventually CAL told XJT to make a deal or lose ALL of the CAL flying. In the meantime XJT BOD did with the 69 aircraft what they thought was best for the shareholders. Obviously XJT wasn't going to park those aircraft while paying the leases if they had opportunities for those aircraft. Frankly, XJT may have been in a different situation now and probably laughing at the naysayers if oil would have remained at the $60-70 a barrel it was when Branded was announced.

By the way, it wasn't a miserable failure as you stated. XJT met and exceeded many performance matrx including revenue and customer satisfaction. It was a great product and everyone was proud of it. The miserable failure was in not being able to charge enough to cover the cost of the increased fuel prices despite the hedges.

The whipsaw by CAL/SKW was possible because CAL made good on their first bluff of releasing the 69 aircraft, finding replacement flying (RAH), and further telling XJT if they didn't make a deal they would release ALL of the aircraft. This would have happened regardless of the balance sheet. They would have done it even if Branded was successful because the CAL flying was still 75% of XJT's flying and XJT couldn't afford to take any further risk.

My whole point of my reply to you other than setting the history straight is to point out that the similarity I'm talking about is one pilot group being used to whipsaw a different one. In XJT's case it was SKW being used to whipsaw XJT and in your case its RAH being used to whipsaw Midwest.

Let me spell it out for you since you either are ignoring it or don't understand. The similarity is that one pilot group, RAH and SKW, is being used to whipsaw another pilot group, Midwest and XJT.

That's the whole POINT!!! Its a whipsaw regardless. Its just that your pilot group seems to be the beneficiary of it at the peril of the other. Is that why you want to deny the similarities? Keep in mind, I'm not blaming the RAH pilot group. It just is what it is.

I am absolutely amazed that XJT is the first company to criticize RAH for doing something that would benefit the shareholders.

XJT - you did the exact same thing. You had to do something with the 69 aircraft that were sitting. You started branded. It would have worked if fuel prices would have stayed in a reasonable range. It was even stated above that this was done for the shareholders.

Whether we like it or not, management doesn't work for us. They work for the shareholders. That is it - end of story. The only weapon that we have to battle this is the union contracts that we have in place. This idiotic name-calling between ALPA, Teamsters, etc does nothing.

Did the Midwest Pilots get a bad deal with this? Yes. Are the pilots at Midwest to blame? No. Are the pilots at RAH to blame? No. If the RAH pilots don't fly the routes (depending on what transpires in the near future), then they will get fired. Not furloughed - fired. More people will get recall notices and either they will fly the routes or be fired. It will continue until enough pilots are on staff to fly the routes. There are a lot of pilots out of work right now that will do just about anything for a job as compared to letting their families starve.

If the RAH pilots stand firm and don't take the flying, Midwest will find someone else who will. I could envision a Midwest alter-ego starting for the exact same reason. Rather than saying that Midwest should be taking pay cuts to a "regional" level, why aren't we saying that RAH should push the bar higher to get "mainline" wages. I haven't looked at the balance sheets for Midwest, but I would be willing to bet that RAH is more financially stable right now and has a better argument for higher wages. Push the wages higher which would ultimately help out the Midwest pilots and possibly keep their company alive (along with helping RAH from the bleeding of 12 out-of-work 170's).

This is the the most ridiculous comment I have ever read on APC, Congratulations, that is not easy to do ;)

Is it still too late to change careers?

Nope, it's never to early to start begging for spare change.:p

The only power the RAH pilots have to make sure everything happens per the contract. Outside of that you're just asking to be fired.

Nevets with all due respect you're taking two different post that were centered around two different subjects and applying them at the same time which of course make them contradictory.

To the first one. I originally took the ramblings of that person and stated how "there is a lot of irony in his post". Meaning there were similarities. Since then the debate went one direction and now has made full circle where you're yelling at me how there are similarities. That was my original point.

Secondly, yes we completely understand what is trying to take place. However this news was first broken to both RAH and Midex at the same time which was through a public press release. RAH pilots have no real say in the matter except to make sure things are done per the contract. That is the only leverage we have. We are not happy with the situation in general.

Lastly XJT wasn't simply a whipsaw. There is this widespread talk that SKYW was used simply to whipsaw XJT. Not true. SKYW put money, investors money, on the table for XJT. It was a real offer for real cash. It wasn't an alter-ego creation like gojets. If XJT had been taken the deal, as they should have from a business point of view, things would be different. When they didn't CAL gave them the option to take the new deal or they'd go with SKYW. XJT decided to take it. It's no secret that XJT has butted heads with CAL many times. Most people don't bite the hand that feeds them. They did and CAL decided to pull that hand back and diversify itself a little more. It wasn't a plain and simple whipsaw. It was a series of reactions taken by both sides over a decent span of time. I know it's just my opinion so forgive me if I don't see it the same, but I have a hard time believing that one day Larry woke up and said "I want to start a plan, that will span a few years, to whipsaw XJT". CAL still pays the fuel bills like the rest of the guys and when things went through the floor they needed to do what they could to stay only marginally in the red. I don't think it was any hell bent vendetta to simply yank XJT around as much as quick decisions to deal with a buckling industry. CAL only lost 3mil last quarter versus the rest due to these drastic changes. I don't personally know what price they're asking XJT to operate at. It could be a reasonable price that XJT's having issues with simply because of the high operating cost the company has compared to others. I don't know. I don't consider it a whipsaw. There is no Freedom-A or Go-Jet created simply lower your contract. SKYW wasn't put there by CAL simply to get a lower price out of you guys. SKYW was there to do business with CAL and CAL expected to do business with SKYW because of their lower operating cost. XJT put it's foot down so CAL said, "If you don't like it then you operate at this price". One thing's for sure and that's that Larry is a bean counter and would go with whoever is cheapest to operate with. You see it as a whipsaw, that's understandable, but I see it as CAL doing business to save itself in the current market. I don't think there were any evil intentions running around for the past couple years just to stick it to you guys.

I have read a good portion of this thread and would like to give my two cents.

I have been in the airline industry for close to two years now. I was vehemently anti-union when I first came here. Now, due to my experiences so far, and events such as what this thread is discussing, I am now a union supporter.

What Midwest and Republic management is doing is sickening. Midwest pilots will lose their job, only to be replaced by a regional pilot that will do the same job for less. If we allow this to continue happening, there will be no mainline jobs left. We will all be flying Boeings for a regional wage at the end of our careers.

Republic pilots need to stand up and do what's right. Republic pilots need to stand up to management and refuse to fly routes that put Midwest pilots out of a job. Any pilots that do agree to do the flying are scabs in my book, I am sure that most pilots would agree with me.

Well I guess its a good thing that your book doesnt mean crap. Learn what a scab is then come back and apologize for calling fellow pilots scabs when its obvious you have no idea what a scab is.

RAH pilots are not in favor of this... but the alternative is to be fired... not furloughed... no leave of absence... fired.

You your self said it..... this is managements brew on both sides.... the pilots are just pawns.

As much as this sucks for MEH pilots...no, most pilots wouldn't agree on your use of "scab".

How is this any different than the Gojet/ TSA and Mesa/ Freedom debacle? Those pilots took over flying that belonged to other pilot groups and did it cheaper. They got labeled scabs. I don't see how this is any different. Midwest guys are getting screwed by management, and if any Republic pilots are willing to step in and do the flying Midwest pilots are doing for less, then they should be scabs too.

Finally, I never called Republic pilots scabs. I merely stated that they should be labeled that IF, and only IF, they take over Midwest flying.

I share your frustration on this new move by managements. No one wants to this industry to go the way of the "technical support" style where it's all outsourced. Unfortunately the only thing we can do is stick to the contract. Simply not working would have you dismissed from the company. I wouldn't call them scabs.

Gojet/TSA and mesa/Freedom are different because each of those alter-egos were created for the sole purpose of whipsawing their pilot groups. Once the companies were created the pilots then decided to work there fully knowing what was taking place. They didn't simply read about it in the news that they were going to be doing new flying for someone putting more of their pilots on the street.

However by definition the GoJet and Freedom guys aren't scabs as far as I know. I don't believe they flew any struck work or crossed any picket lines did they?

This all coming from someone that's been in the industry what, 2 years? LMFAO. So, I guess the opinions/thoughts of those of us that have been in this industry since you were most likely in diapers doesn't matter, eh?

See what we've seen, live what we've lived, get more than 2 years under your belt, then we might just respect your opinion a little more, but will never respect you if you use that kind of language.

Several reported posts on this thread. If you all can't make your argument in a respectable manner, it's best to keep quiet. If you think a post violates TOS, feel free to report it. To make a report and then lash out in kind makes you no better than the one causing the problem in the first place.

If you report a post, and nothing happens, then the mods might simply not agree with your viewpoint. Not all reports have basis for moderation and come from a predjudiced viewpoint. Much of what I'm seeing should be taken to PM's and left off the forums. Personal attacks and insults don't belong at the fourms.

Start a new thread, this one's done. But keep it respectable and in line with TOS. Thanks.