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Reduced Rest Schedules
I am just curious to hear which airlines regularly build schedules with reduced rest overnights. According to the POI for Comair reduced rest was suppose to be an exception to the rule, not a basic operating principle. Comair and ALPA have allowed 6+ reduced rest overnights to be scheduled in a month. Wasn't reduced rest designed to help keep the integrity of a schedule when flights are delayed due to Wx and MTC? If so, why is nothing being done about it?
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Scheduled reduced rest is just another thing to love about Shrinkair...skirting gray area of the letter of the law while completely ignoring the spirit of the law.
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Originally Posted by BobSakamano
(Post 484491)
Scheduled reduced rest is just another thing to love about Shrinkair...skirting gray area of the letter of the law while completely ignoring the spirit of the law.
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Originally Posted by CRJPlt
(Post 484493)
C'mon lets be realistic, thats EVERY airline...
I believe the OP's subject was Comair and there are a few of us that might be a little bitter. |
Originally Posted by TurboDog
(Post 484485)
Comair and ALPA have allowed 6+ reduced rest overnights to be scheduled in a month.
Nobody died so I don't see what's the big deal. :D (Sarcasm Face) |
Originally Posted by Boomer
(Post 484522)
Nobody died so I don't see what's the big deal. :D (Sarcasm Face)
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Originally Posted by BobSakamano
(Post 484506)
Every REGIONAL airline, you mean.
I believe the OP's subject was Comair and there are a few of us that might be a little bitter. No even some majors. One guy once said the words "Same crap, different airline." Maybe not to the extent of the Regionals but its all relative.... |
They can schedule whatever they want. I have never had less than 8 hours behind the door (except when I was very new and didn't know any better). If the kickoffs get delayed enough they eventually get the message that the pilot group will not fly fatigued with inadequate rest, and alter schedules accordingly. They only schedule reduced rest because they get away with it. The FAR's are specific about flying fatigued, you do what you need to in order to be legal and safe.
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Originally Posted by TurboDog
(Post 484485)
I am just curious to hear which airlines regularly build schedules with reduced rest overnights. According to the POI for Comair reduced rest was suppose to be an exception to the rule, not a basic operating principle. Comair and ALPA have allowed 6+ reduced rest overnights to be scheduled in a month. Wasn't reduced rest designed to help keep the integrity of a schedule when flights are delayed due to Wx and MTC? If so, why is nothing being done about it?
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Pinnacle's bread and butter is pushing the pilot group with multiple reduced rest overnights. A signifigant part of our trips are RR.
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Originally Posted by Windsor
(Post 484704)
Pinnacle's bread and butter is pushing the pilot group with multiple reduced rest overnights. A signifigant part of our trips are RR.
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At Mesaba the reduced rest usually comes on the last night of the trip so you can get your comp rest the next night when you are off anyway....
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Originally Posted by Avroman
(Post 485359)
At Mesaba the reduced rest usually comes on the last night of the trip so you can get your comp rest the next night when you are off anyway....
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same is true at trans states....Think i'm starting to see a trend.
Calling in fatigued is one thing, the fear is that you do it on every scheduled reduced rest over night, and some bean counter starts to see a trend, and you find yourself doing a carpet dance....if everyone does it, it works, if one person does it, they're fired. |
Originally Posted by flynavyj
(Post 485383)
same is true at trans states....Think i'm starting to see a trend.
Calling in fatigued is one thing, the fear is that you do it on every scheduled reduced rest over night, and some bean counter starts to see a trend, and you find yourself doing a carpet dance....if everyone does it, it works, if one person does it, they're fired. Oh, Eagle has them... but they are mostly on the ATR, the now gone Saab routes and such. Not sure about the DFW or LAX folks, but the ORD, NYC and BOS folks are very good at ensuring that kickoff flights go out late each and every time they schedule a reduced rest. They have seen scheduled reduced rests become the rarity in schedules rather than the norm. They still sneek them in there, and the crews were very good about ensuring they have adequate rest, calling crew scheduling and informing them they will require 8 hours behind the door.... and during the recent TA talks the company acknowledged, and has told crew scheduling that if it is requested, it will be granted.... BUT, you have to call and ask for it. So, at least at Eagle there is no longer any reason to have a reduced rest.... unless you're a company man and decide to. If you ask for 8 behind the door, you get it. The reduced rests have been decreasing in most of the schedules. |
Compass can not schedule reduced rest per the contract. I came from Comair and this one section of the contract is a big QOL improvement. Now the only reason you are tired is from early report times, but I don't think those are going away.
I'm sure not allowing reduced rest reduces productivity a little, but it's worth it in my opinion. |
The last four trips I had reduced built into my schedule every third day at Mesa.... I'm getting really freekin sick of it
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Originally Posted by Oberon
(Post 485590)
Compass can not schedule reduced rest per the contract. I came from Comair and this one section of the contract is a big QOL improvement. Now the only reason you are tired is from early report times, but I don't think those are going away.
I'm sure not allowing reduced rest reduces productivity a little, but it's worth it in my opinion. My current employer, I've had lots of 11-12 scheduled days after RR overnights. |
I don't think I've ever seen a scheduled RR at SkyW...of course there are the stand-ups (naps, CDO's, etc...). But typically those go fairly senior..of course I've gotten six awarded by PBS in the last two months and I'm certainly not a fan.
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Originally Posted by Mason32
(Post 484546)
They can schedule whatever they want. I have never had less than 8 hours behind the door (except when I was very new and didn't know any better). If the kickoffs get delayed enough they eventually get the message that the pilot group will not fly fatigued with inadequate rest, and alter schedules accordingly. They only schedule reduced rest because they get away with it. The FAR's are specific about flying fatigued, you do what you need to in order to be legal and safe.
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Originally Posted by Mason32
(Post 485546)
Oh, Eagle has them... but they are mostly on the ATR, the now gone Saab routes and such. Not sure about the DFW or LAX folks, but the ORD, NYC and BOS folks are very good at ensuring that kickoff flights go out late each and every time they schedule a reduced rest. They have seen scheduled reduced rests become the rarity in schedules rather than the norm.
They still sneek them in there, and the crews were very good about ensuring they have adequate rest, calling crew scheduling and informing them they will require 8 hours behind the door.... and during the recent TA talks the company acknowledged, and has told crew scheduling that if it is requested, it will be granted.... BUT, you have to call and ask for it. So, at least at Eagle there is no longer any reason to have a reduced rest.... unless you're a company man and decide to. If you ask for 8 behind the door, you get it. The reduced rests have been decreasing in most of the schedules. Are you confusing reduced rest with Continuous Duty Overnights for the point of this thread? 8 hours is reduced rest, no need to ask for it it is required by FARs |
I flew for Pinnacle as a Reserve Captain for 3 years. I assume they r still doing high speeds: This is what I did 90% of the time. I always said if the public only knew this type of scheduling they would be pretty surprised. I could only imagine them driving their personal car under same exact schedule with time to and from the hotel on the overnight and all they have to worry about is their own skin vs 50 of greater pax plus crew.
Its only a matter of time when something bad is going to happen. But I guess the odds are still in pinchanickles favor because no one has had an accident. The crew is allready quailified for fatigue starting Day 2 then to top it off they assign a mountanous terrain airport with no radar in snow on the last day. This schedule is straight from the NWA website! Do the math on total sleep in hotel after 20 minute drive each way. Also add checking in time walking to room and preparing for quality sleep. Brutal schedule: The most brutal schedule I have ever flown! Somehow we as crew managed not to have to go see the chief pilot or faa because we somehow didn't have any incidents. Day 1 Trip 1 2534 dtw-chs 9:43 pm:11:58PM 2530 chs- dtw 6:00am : 8:17 AM Day 2 Trip 2 2534 dtw-chs 9:43 pm:11:58PM 2530 chs- dtw 6:00am : 8:17 AM Day 3 Trip 3 2534 dtw-chs 9:43 pm:11:58PM 2530 chs- dtw 6:00am : 8:17 AM Day 4 Trip 4 2534 dtw-chs 9:10 pm:10:57PM 2530 chs- dtw 6:20am : 8:36 AM |
You know, in the past, people were more apt to put up with this nonsence because they knew that they were only at these garbage regionals to put there time in for a few years and then move on up to something better. Now, however, it is becoming more likely that you will spend an entire career at one of these places before you ever have a chance to work at a major. ugh how depressing...
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Originally Posted by mooney
(Post 581328)
Are you confusing reduced rest with Continuous Duty Overnights for the point of this thread? 8 hours is reduced rest, no need to ask for it it is required by FARs
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Originally Posted by mooney
(Post 581328)
Are you confusing reduced rest with Continuous Duty Overnights for the point of this thread? 8 hours is reduced rest, no need to ask for it it is required by FARs
I'm guessing he's saying 8 hours away from the airport doesn't equal 8 hours behind the door. |
Lakes does it quite a bit. If you think 5 legs on RR is bad, try 10.
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xjt doesnt have them. compass, skywest, etc
Something to remember when contract negotiations come up |
Originally Posted by Lear25D
(Post 581331)
I flew for Pinnacle as a Reserve Captain for 3 years. I assume they r still doing high speeds: This is what I did 90% of the time. I always said if the public only knew this type of scheduling they would be pretty surprised. I could only imagine them driving their personal car under same exact schedule with time to and from the hotel on the overnight and all they have to worry about is their own skin vs 50 of greater pax plus crew.
Its only a matter of time when something bad is going to happen. But I guess the odds are still in pinchanickles favor because no one has had an accident. The crew is allready quailified for fatigue starting Day 2 then to top it off they assign a mountanous terrain airport with no radar in snow on the last day. This schedule is straight from the NWA website! Do the math on total sleep in hotel after 20 minute drive each way. Also add checking in time walking to room and preparing for quality sleep. Brutal schedule: The most brutal schedule I have ever flown! Somehow we as crew managed not to have to go see the chief pilot or faa because we somehow didn't have any incidents. Day 1 Trip 1 2534 dtw-chs 9:43 pm:11:58PM 2530 chs- dtw 6:00am : 8:17 AM Day 2 Trip 2 2534 dtw-chs 9:43 pm:11:58PM 2530 chs- dtw 6:00am : 8:17 AM Day 3 Trip 3 2534 dtw-chs 9:43 pm:11:58PM 2530 chs- dtw 6:00am : 8:17 AM Day 4 Trip 4 2534 dtw-chs 9:10 pm:10:57PM 2530 chs- dtw 6:20am : 8:36 AM Well, let's examine this: It looks to me like a series of 10.5 hour days(containing 6 hour "lunch breaks") with 13.5 hours of rest in between each day. True, it is all on the back side of the clock, but you know that before it starts. The good part of is that the sequence doesn't contain any body clock swaps. Now, if you try and fly this rotation using the 6 hour lunch break as your sole opportunity for sleep and stay awake in CHS every time, then I see where you might get fatigued doing this. The only real challenge flying this rotation is to arrive at the first departure in DTW having swapped your body clock and ready to fly, not having spent the entire day doing a 2-3 leg j/s commute getting to DTW at 8pm. I'll wager that your FOM has a policy statement about just this type of thing.;) When I did the math on this, there is "opportunity" for well over 15 hours of sleep in each 24 hour period, I suppose one can get "fatigued" by sleeping too much. It is not the company's responsibility to keep you in your normal personal sleeping schedule. If you can't do this one, I'd recommend that you stay away from international flying. The real down side I see to this schedule, is that it is just not very productive, unless you like/live in CHS. Fly Safe SD |
Sabre Driver
Yes the math is a very easy way to come up with the rest time that you are suggesting. The math is simple and not common sense view and body clock adjustments that don't normally take place. The reduced rest guys on these assignments I assure you try to sleep when they are released first thing in the morning but will only average on a good day 4 hrs of sleep. I guarantee these guys would get 8 hrs of sleep if their body would actually adjust. And the lunch break at midnight is simplistic view as well. I guess somebody could pop some pills to get more sleep but that would not be wise. I feel for the reduced rest and midnight lunch guys and gals. Having done these assignments I give them a hell of alot of credit for pulling it off without major incident. |
Originally Posted by Lear25D
(Post 581620)
Sabre Driver
Yes the math is a very easy way to come up with the rest time that you are suggesting. The math is simple and not common sense view and body clock adjustments that don't normally take place. The reduced rest guys on these assignments I assure you try to sleep when they are released first thing in the morning but will only average on a good day 4 hrs of sleep. I guarantee these guys would get 8 hrs of sleep if their body would actually adjust. And the lunch break at midnight is simplistic view as well. I guess somebody could pop some pills to get more sleep but that would not be wise. I feel for the reduced rest and midnight lunch guys and gals. Having done these assignments I give them a hell of alot of credit for pulling it off without major incident. For myself, I love doing stand up overnights. The trick for me is to not drink coffee or caffeine, and sleep as soon as I get home in the morning. I can see that this doesn't work for everybody. Stand ups should be voluntary. At my airline (Comair) standups go very senior. I would like to point out that standups usually (well, always, from my experience) are one leg out and one leg back. The only problems I've seen is when it's a really long leg, like MSP-SLC or CVG-BGR. One overlooked benefit to standups is that they allow the company to create more productive trips without reduced rest overnights. Let's keep the apples and oranges seperate. Reduced rest followed by a 12 hour 6 leg day is one thing, a standup overnight is another. |
You guys are looking a little tired. By the time you get to that outstation I bet you're pretty fatigued.
I'm sure your local fed would love to hear that you're being pressured by management to fly fatigued. |
I would bet that 90% of 9E four days have at least one RR overnight and that 30%-40% of them have two. That being said, if that is the reason why we can get the trip efficiecy high enough to give me 18 days off, I'm all for it.
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Originally Posted by Lear25D
(Post 581331)
I flew for Pinnacle as a Reserve Captain for 3 years. I assume they r still doing high speeds: This is what I did 90% of the time. I always said if the public only knew this type of scheduling they would be pretty surprised. I could only imagine them driving their personal car under same exact schedule with time to and from the hotel on the overnight and all they have to worry about is their own skin vs 50 of greater pax plus crew.
Its only a matter of time when something bad is going to happen. But I guess the odds are still in pinchanickles favor because no one has had an accident. The crew is allready quailified for fatigue starting Day 2 then to top it off they assign a mountanous terrain airport with no radar in snow on the last day. This schedule is straight from the NWA website! Do the math on total sleep in hotel after 20 minute drive each way. Also add checking in time walking to room and preparing for quality sleep. Brutal schedule: The most brutal schedule I have ever flown! Somehow we as crew managed not to have to go see the chief pilot or faa because we somehow didn't have any incidents. Day 1 Trip 1 2534 dtw-chs 9:43 pm:11:58PM 2530 chs- dtw 6:00am : 8:17 AM Day 2 Trip 2 2534 dtw-chs 9:43 pm:11:58PM 2530 chs- dtw 6:00am : 8:17 AM Day 3 Trip 3 2534 dtw-chs 9:43 pm:11:58PM 2530 chs- dtw 6:00am : 8:17 AM Day 4 Trip 4 2534 dtw-chs 9:10 pm:10:57PM 2530 chs- dtw 6:20am : 8:36 AM |
I very very rarely ever have reduced rest at Mesa, but I'm on the Dash in Denver which is a different life than the rest of the world.
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i am probably bucking the trend here but i dont want them to get rid of reduced rest. reduced rest is the reason i average 20 days off a month and only work 1 or maybe 2 two day trips in a row. my typical trip starts at the first push, do 5 legs. reduce rest that night and be done around noon the next day. i average 11 hours or so in a day and a half.
and if you live in memphis you REALLY DONT WANT them to get rid of reduced rest. we only have 3 pushes a day. can you imagine if you had to skip one of those pushes just for 2 more hours or so of rest. for example you do the last flight to tlh and get there at 930pm. instead of coming back at 6 you now have to wait till 1200. the trips would become way unproductive and everyone would lose days off in the process. |
The only viable alternative to reduced rest is 24+ hour layovers. I know Skywest has these, but I've never seen a trip at Pinnacle in over 14 months with more than a 23.5 hour layover. Most guys will complain about RR, but if they knew the alternative was one less day off at home and 26 hours at the Comfort Inn, they wouldn't mind so much.
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Originally Posted by Airsupport
(Post 582209)
i am probably bucking the trend here but i dont want them to get rid of reduced rest. reduced rest is the reason i average 20 days off a month and only work 1 or maybe 2 two day trips in a row. my typical trip starts at the first push, do 5 legs. reduce rest that night and be done around noon the next day. i average 11 hours or so in a day and a half.
And not all operations are the same, but many have a lot of similarities. But think about the guys that CAN'T hold 20 days off, but rather might be working 20 days, AND are having multiple RR's where the company can fit them in. After a 4 day trip with long sit times, two 10ish hour overnights, and a single RR overnight, with three days off, often that first day is a waste because it's just pure recovery. |
Originally Posted by dojetdriver
(Post 582373)
Good point, RR's can contribute greatly to pay/QOL.
And not all operations are the same, but many have a lot of similarities. But think about the guys that CAN'T hold 20 days off, but rather might be working 20 days, AND are having multiple RR's where the company can fit them in. After a 4 day trip with long sit times, two 10ish hour overnights, and a single RR overnight, with three days off, often that first day is a waste because it's just pure recovery. |
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