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Up and Out Policies: Upgrade

Old 10-24-2008, 05:29 PM
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Default Up and Out Policies: Upgrade

I started this in response to a post I saw on the CRJ checklist thread that was closed.

Tony mentioned that he was fired for not successfully completing the E-120 upgrade course. He made mention of an "up-and-out" policy in which you are fired unless you can successfully upgrade.

While I don't like to see any pilot "fail" professionally, I see the merit in such a policy.

Being a good F/O is an art, and there are many of them out there. At some point, each person needs to be able to upgrade and accept the responsibility of being a PIC. This also prevents a lopsided seniority list, where you have 10 year people in the right seat, clogging up the upper end of F/O seniority lists. I know there are thousands of 10 year F/O's at the majors. This is by no means anything to be ashamed of, as individuals cannot control when their seniority can hold a captain seat. I simply used 10 years due to the fact that we are talking about regional airlines.

SWA also has an "up or out" policy, where when the time comes, each F/O must enter the upgrade process. Their policy, as I understand it, allows each pilot to fail the upgrade process once, and return to the right seat. After at set amount of time back in the right seat, the F/O must re-enter the upgrade process. At that point, unless he/she can complete the course, that pilot is fired.

I know we have a lot of lifer F/O's here at Mesa, one of them seniority number 20. It is rumored that he successfully upgraded once, got into trouble, and was sent back to the right seat permanently. He still wears 4 stripes.

Is this the kind of envionment that is conducive to safe flight? An 18 year employee in the right seat with a 6 year captain - do you think such a captain would have his authority challenged?

Last edited by paxhauler85; 10-24-2008 at 05:41 PM.
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Old 10-24-2008, 05:36 PM
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is this the same tony that was a sapa rep? if it is then the very people he defended have let him down. i know he didn't want alpa at skywest but maybe alpa would have been the one to help him keep his job. that is very sad and tony i wish you the best.

as far as the up and out policy i think it is ridiculous. if you want to be a life fo then thats your decision. we have several retired airforce guys that have been here for 15 years plus and they are fos at pinnacle. they are strictly here for the travel and medical benefits. they all get weekends off, they all get 20 plus days off. if they were on the captain side there wouldn't be much competition, but there would be some. i have been at pinnacle for nearly 3 years now. if i were to upgrade now i would be sitting airport ready reserve and home reserve for the forseeable future. i like my qol now and until i can at least hold i line i don't plan on upgrading. and also at pinnacle if you fail upgrade you go back to the right seat, no harm no foul. you get 2 attempts at upgrade per the contract. it is companies discretion after that.

and p.s. i have flown with captains who have only been here a year. yet when we fly together they are still the captain and i am still the fo, no matter how long we have been here.

Last edited by Airsupport; 10-24-2008 at 05:45 PM.
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Old 10-24-2008, 05:39 PM
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RAH has some..... there are several with seniority numbers in the 300 range.... on a list where 1000 or so will hold captain positions that are FOs....

One that I specifically know of ...well, she passed her training but failed her FED ride.........

Certainly pilots should be allowed to defer upgrade for some period of time ...but at some point, there should be a requirement to upgrade....
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Old 10-24-2008, 05:47 PM
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Tony wasn't forced to upgrade, there is no rule that says you have to upgrade at SKW. Not sure if you also meant SKW but I thought I'd throw that out there. We do have lifer FO's here. I know of one who has a family and a business so upgrading would mean a commute and it just isn't in his best interests. Tony upgraded from CRJ FO to EMB Captain which isn't easy at all. I sure as hell wouldn't try it.
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Old 10-24-2008, 05:53 PM
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What is SKW's policy? Do you only get one shot?
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Old 10-24-2008, 05:56 PM
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From what I read in that other post, yes.

I do think it is unacceptable to not offer someone who has just failed their first attempt at upgrading to captain, a chance to return to their position as first officer.

How anyone can vote down a union with a policy in place like that is beyond me, I think they are crazy, but that is a different topic.
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Old 10-24-2008, 06:17 PM
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"I know we have a lot of lifer F/O's here at Mesa, one of them seniority number 20. It is rumored that he successfully upgraded once, got into trouble, and was sent back to the right seat permanently. He still wears 4 stripes."

If your talking about the PHX Captain who is now the #1 FO in PHX he is not permanantly downgrounded I think they put him the right seat for either 6 months or a year, amd he is not wearing 4 stripes anymore.
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Old 10-24-2008, 06:22 PM
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IMO, you should always be allowed to return to your previous seat and position if you fail your first attempt at upgrade...especially from a Jet FO to Prop CA position.

I also don't believe a single training failure should EVER cost you your job, from #1 to a probie doing his/her initial check.
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Old 10-24-2008, 06:46 PM
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Originally Posted by BoilerUP View Post
IMO, you should always be allowed to return to your previous seat and position if you fail your first attempt at upgrade...especially from a Jet FO to Prop CA position.

I also don't believe a single training failure should EVER cost you your job, from #1 to a probie doing his/her initial check.
I agree that you should get 2 chances at upgrading but I am of the belief that if you can't hack being a captain, you shouldn't be doing this job.

In regards to the Pinnacle guys: If they've been there 15 years, wouldn't they hold a line that had the weekends off as well. 15 years at Mesa gets you that, even in PHX.

Anyone who says they haven't upgraded at 15 years is hiding behind the QOL excuse.
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Old 10-24-2008, 06:50 PM
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Originally Posted by paxhauler85 View Post
I agree that you should get 2 chances at upgrading but I am of the belief that if you can't hack being a captain, you shouldn't be doing this job.

In regards to the Pinnacle guys: If they've been there 15 years, wouldn't they hold a line that had the weekends off as well. 15 years at Mesa gets you that, even in PHX.

Anyone who says they haven't upgraded at 15 years is hiding behind the QOL excuse.

lol, before you make a broad statement like that check your facts. remember i said several of them are retired airforce. from b52 guys to fighters. i think after flying for the airforce for 20+ years and the action they have seen as captains of their planes i can assume they can hack it at being a captain at pinnacle airlines, just dont want to.
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