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-   -   CRJ1000 Exists in ICT (https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/regional/32757-crj1000-exists-ict.html)

tyrael37 10-27-2008 11:19 AM
CRJ1000 Exists in ICT
 
When taking off from ICT's 19R the past Saturday morning, I took notice of a CRJ with the big '1000' emblazoned across the fuselage. I wasn't able to snap a picture, but it does exist. What's the haps on this plane? Last thing I heard was that Mesa was going to be the launch customer for this aircraft, but the way things are going....

flyboyzz1 10-27-2008 11:31 AM
no they aren't

flyboyzz1 10-27-2008 11:31 AM
Brit air is.

p1ayn 10-27-2008 11:56 AM
Originally Posted by tyrael37 (Post 486594)
When taking off from ICT's 19R the past Saturday morning, I took notice of a CRJ with the big '1000' emblazoned across the fuselage. I wasn't able to snap a picture, but it does exist. What's the haps on this plane? Last thing I heard was that Mesa was going to be the launch customer for this aircraft, but the way things are going....
Im thinking you saw the 1000th 700 or 900 RJ

paxhauler85 10-27-2008 01:52 PM
Originally Posted by tyrael37 (Post 486594)
When taking off from ICT's 19R the past Saturday morning, I took notice of a CRJ with the big '1000' emblazoned across the fuselage. I wasn't able to snap a picture, but it does exist. What's the haps on this plane? Last thing I heard was that Mesa was going to be the launch customer for this aircraft, but the way things are going....
We (Mesa) have zero orders for CRJ1000's.

Reds 10-27-2008 02:52 PM
09/03/08 Article: CRJ1000 NextGen Jetliner Prototype Has Successful First Flight
Aerospace > Media Centre > Press Releases

“Following a few more flights from Mirabel, the prototype CRJ1000 NextGen jet will be flown to the Bombardier Flight Test Center in Wichita, Kansas where, next year, it will be joined by the first production CRJ1000 NextGen airliner”

Brit Air
Myair
Adria Airways
Undisclosed order of 15 (could be a US airline, another Euro airline, Asian, Middle East,… or a combo of several)

JSDL 10-27-2008 02:54 PM
Originally Posted by p1ayn (Post 486617)
Im thinking you saw the 1000th 700 or 900 RJ

I have pictures of a silver and blue one when it was sitting at KIWA on Sept 17. They had it down there doing some tests on how long it would take to cool it down after being closed up all day in the heat. Then they were going to NM to do cross wind landings. Good looking plane, hope it doesn't get put to use at the regional level.

TurboFan 10-27-2008 03:39 PM
Originally Posted by JSDL (Post 486731)
Good looking plane, hope it doesn't get put to use at the regional level.
Good point! God forbid a regional jet be used by regional airlines. :rolleyes:

flynavyj 10-27-2008 03:42 PM
Originally Posted by TurboFan (Post 486758)
Good point! God forbid a regional jet be used by regional airlines. :rolleyes:
uhmmmm, at what point does a 100 seat jet become a regional airliner? Just cause it's got RJ in the prefix, doesn't mean it should be flown by guys making 20-30k a year....get real.

Colnago 10-27-2008 03:43 PM
Ugh oh.......pandora's box....

cgtpilot 10-27-2008 03:56 PM
If everyone getting on has to gate check their crap, its a regional jet.

TurboFan 10-27-2008 04:02 PM
Originally Posted by Colnago (Post 486762)
Ugh oh.......pandora's box....
Hahah. Seriously.

The line between what is regional and what is mainline is definitely becoming more and more indiscernible. Ask an Airways guy if he thinks the EMB-190 belongs on property and if your experience is anything compared to mine, he will tell you it's a regional jet being used by the airline to drive down their pay. I agree. I still see planes like the EMB-190, 195 and CRJ-1000 as regional airplanes meant for regional carriers. Although great airplanes, they just don't have the feel or performance that many "mainline" planes like the 737 have. Personally I see these new planes as a chance for regional pilots to make a stand and demand more pay. Personally I think one of the reasons our pay is so low is because companies have justified it by comparing our pay to the amount of passengers we carry - 50 passengers doesn't sound like that many so don't pay them very much. Now that that the line between mainline and regional is becoming blurred, maybe a regional will step up and pay their pilots respectably to fly this new breed of 100+ pax airplane. A smart regional would as I see these new airplanes as the birds of the future, coming into popularity as the inefficient CRJ-200's and ERJ-145's are phased out.

ToiletDuck 10-27-2008 04:06 PM
Look at that thing. Looks like when it hits turb it'll snap!

duvie 10-27-2008 04:12 PM
The DC-9s are all considered mainline A/C and the -10 variant sat 80 pax. Thats less than the E-175 and the CRJ-1000 FWIW

p1ayn 10-27-2008 04:27 PM
Originally Posted by duvie (Post 486791)
The DC-9s are all considered mainline A/C and the -10 variant sat 80 pax. Thats less than the E-175 and the CRJ-1000 FWIW
But you can bring your bags on it....:)

p1ayn 10-27-2008 04:29 PM
Originally Posted by flynavyj (Post 486760)
uhmmmm, at what point does a 100 seat jet become a regional airliner? Just cause it's got RJ in the prefix, doesn't mean it should be flown by guys making 20-30k a year....get real.
When the " RJ" stands for "Regional Jet" its a regional jet...Second tier question is that NO JET should be flown by ANYONE making 20-30k regardless of the pre-fix.

GliderCFI 10-27-2008 05:06 PM
Also those 80 pax had leg room on a diesel 9. On any RJ a 5'4" person feels cramped....I'm 6'5" Ouch

OnMyWay 10-27-2008 05:23 PM
Originally Posted by Colnago (Post 486762)
Ugh oh.......pandora's box....
Ha!!! Couldn't have said it better!

flynavyj 10-27-2008 05:45 PM
was surprised a few weeks back when my wife and i rode to philly on a republic 170. I had ridden the 190 out of CLT on mainline once, and was the last passenger on the aircraft, and over my seat i had enough bin space for my overnight bag, and on the opposite side of the plane, i had enough room for my flight case. Was very very impressed, when on a republic 170, they were checking the last 5-10 bags that were coming on board, stood out as interesting. Makes me wonder if with the decrease in length, the overhead bin space (per passenger) was reduced some?

Also, i have a hard time believing that companies will pay their employees more to fly these larger 100 seat aircraft. When good companies (or even bad companies) go to the negotiating table they all start from the same play book, pay as little as you can get away with. The company doesn't WANT to pay you a RESPECTABLE wage to fly the airplanes, if they did that, it'd eat into profits, and management bonuses. Also, soon as company A decides to to pay their pilots more, company B will swoop in offer their pilots the ability to fly the same airplane, but for a couple bucks less, and the pilots will agree to it so they can get the planes on property (with the hopes of negotiating better pay at a later date), company A will now not be competitive, and all those pilots with better pay will be trying to find other jobs....it's happened before, and, sadly, will happen again.

ToiletDuck 10-27-2008 06:13 PM
What it comes down to are the pilot groups at the majors. They can't relax the scope. If they relax today they get a short term gain for a long term loss. We all get screwed.

Justdoinmyjob 10-27-2008 06:20 PM
Hey, here's a concept. How about airline X just uses it's own pilots to do all of airline X's flying, and quits using subcontractors. It's the proliferation of all these small lift providers which is keeping wages depressed in this industry vis a vis the whipsaw.

Now I know that there are some who will answer, "But what about those pilots who didn't want to fly an RJ and caused the birth of this mess?"

Well, most of those guys have since retired, and do we really want to keep paying the price for their stupidity? With that said though, there is really no way to change things until every pilot supports changing the status quo at the regional level, and that's not very likely to happen.:(

deltabound 10-27-2008 06:36 PM
Originally Posted by cgtpilot (Post 486772)
If everyone getting on has to gate check their crap, its a regional jet.
ROTFL!

That's about the most succinct, definitive explanation of a regional jet I've ever read. That should go in the definition sections of scope clauses or something.

cgtpilot 10-27-2008 06:38 PM
Originally Posted by flynavyj (Post 486885)
was surprised a few weeks back when my wife and i rode to philly on a republic 170. I had ridden the 190 out of CLT on mainline once, and was the last passenger on the aircraft, and over my seat i had enough bin space for my overnight bag, and on the opposite side of the plane, i had enough room for my flight case. Was very very impressed, when on a republic 170, they were checking the last 5-10 bags that were coming on board, stood out as interesting. Makes me wonder if with the decrease in length, the overhead bin space (per passenger) was reduced some?

Also, i have a hard time believing that companies will pay their employees more to fly these larger 100 seat aircraft. When good companies (or even bad companies) go to the negotiating table they all start from the same play book, pay as little as you can get away with. The company doesn't WANT to pay you a RESPECTABLE wage to fly the airplanes, if they did that, it'd eat into profits, and management bonuses. Also, soon as company A decides to to pay their pilots more, company B will swoop in offer their pilots the ability to fly the same airplane, but for a couple bucks less, and the pilots will agree to it so they can get the planes on property (with the hopes of negotiating better pay at a later date), company A will now not be competitive, and all those pilots with better pay will be trying to find other jobs....it's happened before, and, sadly, will happen again.
You are spot on. Our 190 pay (although they just raised it) still isn't where it needs to be. If our 150% rate was our base pay then I would be happy. We as pilots should never feel guilty for wanting more pay & restoring a honest profession. JB however isn't in the position of all the regionals begging for flying from the mother hen . But until regional pilots get together and stop flying for peanuts under the fee-for-departure scheme your described scenario will continue & companies will outsource large chunks of their flying to the lowest bidder. Hence for the need to maintain or tighten Scope. This is why airplanes such as the E190, DC9, 717 are & should continue to be flown by mainline pilots. Because if that equipment gets in the hands of the regionals, pay will drop hurting us all. Mainline pilot groups will allows be able to negotiate better pay & work rules for a respective airplane.

cgtpilot 10-27-2008 06:43 PM
Originally Posted by deltabound (Post 486924)
ROTFL!

That's about the most succinct, definitive explanation of a regional jet I've ever read. That should go in the definition sections of scope clauses or something.
....to add to my above...if you continue to SSSTTTRRREEEECCCHHH an RJ to meet the pax # of a mainline airframe its still an RJ :)

cessna157 10-28-2008 01:17 PM
Originally Posted by p1ayn (Post 486617)
Im thinking you saw the 1000th 700 or 900 RJ
There are not 1000 -700s or -900s. There are, however, 1000 RJs. Comair has the 1000th. 10125 has a special "1000 RJs" decal by the door. But it doesn't fly into ICT.

Bond 10-28-2008 04:08 PM
Originally Posted by TurboFan (Post 486780)
Hahah. Seriously.

The line between what is regional and what is mainline is definitely becoming more and more indiscernible. Ask an Airways guy if he thinks the EMB-190 belongs on property and if your experience is anything compared to mine, he will tell you it's a regional jet being used by the airline to drive down their pay. I agree. I still see planes like the EMB-190, 195 and CRJ-1000 as regional airplanes meant for regional carriers. Although great airplanes, they just don't have the feel or performance that many "mainline" planes like the 737 have. Personally I see these new planes as a chance for regional pilots to make a stand and demand more pay. Personally I think one of the reasons our pay is so low is because companies have justified it by comparing our pay to the amount of passengers we carry - 50 passengers doesn't sound like that many so don't pay them very much. Now that that the line between mainline and regional is becoming blurred, maybe a regional will step up and pay their pilots respectably to fly this new breed of 100+ pax airplane. A smart regional would as I see these new airplanes as the birds of the future, coming into popularity as the inefficient CRJ-200's and ERJ-145's are phased out.

There are multiple flaws in your line of thinking. First off, the efficiency of an aircraft is directly affected by the price of fuel. Right now at the current market price, mainline carriers should see an increase on their margins associated with the 50 seaters. Second, a CRJ1000 is a DC-9 size aircraft, it's by all means and accounts a mainline aircraft even by our current standards (see JetBlue, USair, AirCanada, etc.).

The biggest problem with your mentality is that you actually think a regional is going to pay "good" rates to fly a mainline size aircraft....sadly it would defeat the point of it's existence, hence the contracting of cheaper flying to regionals.

What should happen, is the mainline carriers begin to take back all of the regional flying. You do understand that if these birds make it to the regionals, that will be less jobs at the majors don't you? Either you're very new to the industry and you got a bad case of SJS, or you want to be a lifer at your regional. Either way, you fall in the minority.

Flyboyrw 10-28-2008 05:30 PM
The Bombardier Q400, the blue and white promotional plane is parked in ICT also.

Boomer 10-28-2008 06:04 PM
Originally Posted by TurboFan (Post 486780)
Personally I see these new planes as a chance for regional pilots to make a stand and demand more pay.
Personally I see these jets going to the lowest bidder, which will then staff them at current 70/90 seat rates plus a nickel or so.

With 5-8 regionals working for each major, how does the CRJ1000 give any regional pilot a chance to make a stand and demand anything?

TurboFan 10-29-2008 10:47 AM
Originally Posted by Bond (Post 487593)
Either you're very new to the industry and you got a bad case of SJS, or you want to be a lifer at your regional. Either way, you fall in the minority.
I can assure you I'm neither. You bring up some good points, sometimes my thinking is a little idealistic. My main point was that the mainline carriers don't want these airplanes and they seem like a better fit for a regional carrier than a mainline carrier. Do I think regionals are going to play fair and actually pay pilots what they deserve for flying them? No. Do I think pilots should adamantly refuse to fly them without substantial pay increases? Yes.

Originally Posted by Bond (Post 487593)
You do understand that if these birds make it to the regionals, that will be less jobs at the majors don't you?
No, I disagree. I think most mainline carriers would use them to replace again 737 fleets and pay their pilots less to fly them. They may gain a route here or there but I don't think airplanes like the 1000 will provide much in the way of additional routes and jobs. I think they would just help the majors drive pay down even further.

Originally Posted by Bond (Post 487593)
...the efficiency of an aircraft is directly affected by the price of fuel. Right now at the current market price, mainline carriers should see an increase on their margins associated with the 50 seaters.
That's extremely short sighted thinking. Oil prices have fallen substantially and god willing they will stay that way, but for how long? The 200 had it's 15 minutes and it's on its way out. Their old, tired and inefficient airplanes. Think of it this way, the 200's may be slightly profitable now, but the 7 and 9's are much more profitable. The Q4 has sealed the 200's fate in my opinion. I think it's obvious that T-props are just much more economical for 30-70 pax than a jet.

Bond 10-29-2008 11:47 AM
Originally Posted by TurboFan (Post 488112)
I can assure you I'm neither. You bring up some good points, sometimes my thinking is a little idealistic. My main point was that the mainline carriers don't want these airplanes and they seem like a better fit for a regional carrier than a mainline carrier. Do I think regionals are going to play fair and actually pay pilots what they deserve for flying them? No. Do I think pilots should adamantly refuse to fly them without substantial pay increases? Yes.
I apologize if I got the wrong impression from you, but it almost seems like you would rather see these birds at a regional. As I stated in my previous post, all jet flying, heck, all flying should be at mainline.

Originally Posted by TurboFan (Post 488112)
No, I disagree. I think most mainline carriers would use them to replace again 737 fleets and pay their pilots less to fly them. They may gain a route here or there but I don't think airplanes like the 1000 will provide much in the way of additional routes and jobs. I think they would just help the majors drive pay down even further.
The difference is that if they are at mainline they will provide the opportunity to negotiate better rates. Also pilots at mainline have the option of bidding bigger more lucrative equipment (career progression), where do you go from a regional, if we start to take all the domestic flying?

Originally Posted by TurboFan (Post 488112)
That's extremely short sighted thinking. Oil prices have fallen substantially and god willing they will stay that way, but for how long? The 200 had it's 15 minutes and it's on its way out. Their old, tired and inefficient airplanes. Think of it this way, the 200's may be slightly profitable now, but the 7 and 9's are much more profitable. The Q4 has sealed the 200's fate in my opinion. I think it's obvious that T-props are just much more economical for 30-70 pax than a jet.
I agree oil isn't the only thing that drives the efficiency of an aircraft, but it is one of the main factors. That being said, look at CAL (through XJT), they've taken the embraers, and managed to maximize it's revenue through a series of strategies such as international routes (higher yields), longer thiner routes, streamlining the product. Again, now with fuel dropping, they should start seeing a higher profit margin on these birds. Whether or not it will be short term that remains to be seeing. I don't know about the 200's, but the XR's have a few years to go (particularly with CAL's scope), the thing can go from IAH to YYZ and back in the winter, great aircraft!

TurboFan 10-29-2008 03:11 PM
I think we're both arguing the same point really. Basically we both agree that no matter where these new birds land, the pilots deserve to be paid appropriately for flying them. I could honestly care less if they end up at regionals or majors as long as the following happens:

- New birds go to regionals; the pilots refuse to fly them without substantial pay increases.

- New birds go to mainline; the pilots refuse to fly them at reduced pay.

These planes really are bridging the gap and blurring the distinction between what should be mainline, and what should be regional. These planes are going to usher in some big changes in the industry and I hope we can all be unified enough to make sure pilots are paid appropriately for flying them and no one flies them at current regional wages.

BlueMoon 10-29-2008 03:42 PM
Originally Posted by TurboFan (Post 486780)
Hahah. Seriously.

The line between what is regional and what is mainline is definitely becoming more and more indiscernible. Ask an Airways guy if he thinks the EMB-190 belongs on property and if your experience is anything compared to mine, he will tell you it's a regional jet being used by the airline to drive down their pay. I agree. I still see planes like the EMB-190, 195 and CRJ-1000 as regional airplanes meant for regional carriers. Although great airplanes, they just don't have the feel or performance that many "mainline" planes like the 737 have. Personally I see these new planes as a chance for regional pilots to make a stand and demand more pay. Personally I think one of the reasons our pay is so low is because companies have justified it by comparing our pay to the amount of passengers we carry - 50 passengers doesn't sound like that many so don't pay them very much. Now that that the line between mainline and regional is becoming blurred, maybe a regional will step up and pay their pilots respectably to fly this new breed of 100+ pax airplane. A smart regional would as I see these new airplanes as the birds of the future, coming into popularity as the inefficient CRJ-200's and ERJ-145's are phased out.
God I hope most pilots don't have this view, as for "performance" E170's CRJ7's and 900' perform just as well as mainline planes (except a 757).


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