Traditional Route or Airforce?
 

I have to make a decision about what university to attend this week comming up(football coaches are starting to get pushy). One of the schools has a aviation program, and from what Ive seen looks like a really good program. Would it be worth it to pursue a aviation major?
Or my other option would be to go play football for one of the other univerisities and get a space physics degree. After which I would likely enlist in the Air Force.

What option do you all think is the best path for a aviation career? Aviation degree and CFI/regional route or Space Physics than AirForce route?

Any advice/Opinions would be greatly appretiated.

Airforce route all the way! I have very few regrets in life, but not going into the armed services is on top of the short lists of things I would have done differently. Just my .02

Sorry a little off topic but Geronimo the picture in your aviator of the PC-12 is that 770G Steve Carolls now crashed Piltatus? Just curious looks like it and I know somebody that used to fly it.

DEFINITLEY go the Air Force route- if you can hack it. It´s tough!
But here are the facts- if you start off the civilian way, you´re going to put in 2-4 years as a CFI, then maybe move up to a regional for another 4-8 years, all the while making crappy pay and sharing a room with 6 other broke pilots. This is a best case scenario- actually, if you´re REALLY lucky, you MIGHT be able to cut the whole thing down to 6-8 years before you get a shot at SWA or AirTran or UAL.

Did I mention you´ll be broke most of the time?

Option B- the Air Farce. (Sorry, ex Marine talking) They pay you for all of your training, you get to fly some fun stuff (unless you go transport- then you get to fly mostly boring stuff, but to a lot of fun places all over the world!) and it´s STILL going to take you 8-10 years to finish your commitment, except now you´re not broke, have some money in the bank, maybe even marry one of those hot Chair Force girls... and if you flew the right stuff (namely, C-17´s, C-130´s (most friggin fun you can have in a uniform!) or C-5´s) you will have a MUCH easier time getting into the Majors, wether it be CAL or FedEX... (course, you could still end up at the regionals- I´ve seen it a few times)

But whatever you do, don´t waste your time on a stupid aviation degree. It´s worthless, and neither the Air Force nor any airline care one bit wether you have a degree in Aviation Science (whatever the hell that is) nor in Underwater Basket Weaving with a Minor in Nose Picking. Go study something that interests you, wether it be Art History (flew with one of those in the Marines) or Finance (again) or Astro-Physics, which, unless you happen to be an Astro-Physisist (did I spell that right?) is about as useless as an Aviation Degree, but much more mentally stimulating.

But don´t just settle for the Air Force- check out the Marines and Navy, as well. You fun shiner equipment in the Air Force, but the USMC and Navy make better pilots. In my own humble opinion, anyway. Oh, the Army also has a large flying wing (actually, the largest air wing of all the branches) but it´s mostly helicopters.

Go military, serve your country, have fun, make some money, and then lose it all when you go to the airlines!

I agree with gringo. Go Air Force! I tried to get in right after 9/11 and the only thing that kept me out was my astigmatism in my right eye that was way past their limits. The only thing to remember is that there is a 10 year commitment, not counting the 2 years of training (this is what I was told). But as gringo said you will, at least for now, put that in with CFIing and regionals. Plus the Astrophsyics degree can open a lot more doors later on if something would happen to your health. Now that I think of it, if your that smart then become a professional student, get your Masters and Phd and apply to NASA!

Yah I figure with a physics degree there is that slight chance at nasa someday. But yah flying for the airforce sounds like an experiance of a life time.
So for the airforce/navy/marines how is the aircraft selection determined? How do they decide wether to assign you to transport, fighters or helicopters?

So far It sounds like the military route is the best choice.

I say go navy!

Go Air Force (note it is two words not one)!

Whatever is needed at that point and time (changes day by day). Plus whatever you best fit into skill wise and physically.

My .02 is that if I were to go fly for the military and commit a good portion of my life to them I would fly a fighter for the Navy. Why? you may ask. Because those are the ONLY pilots that have any sort of bragging rights. Landing a fighter on a short deck in the middle of the ocean that is constantly moving up an down by 50ft and left to right by the same in 0/0 vis is just an incredible feat. If you can do that, you are the man!

Yeah, I guess landing on the boat would be challenging and a rush. While you guys are practicing your traps, we AF types are spending that gas honing our combat skills...much better use of my time in my opinion. Better facilities, QOL, and more airplanes than any other branch. If you want to fly fixed wing go AF!

We need to make a very important distinction...

After attending college and earning your space physics degree, you said "enlist" in the Air Force. I think what you meant to say was (if not, this is what you would have to do) : "Participate in the Air Force ROTC program while in college so that you can graduate and get picked up for an Air Force flight training slot upon graduation..."

If you enlist, you will have to become an officer prior to earning those wings. Possible routes to doing that are getting into the Air Force's OCS (Officer Canidate School). The acronymn might be different than the one I just quoted but either way, that's the only realistic way of becoming an officer if you enlist first. Not to mention, you might have to wait a few years to get picked up for OCS.

Basically, you have a lot of hard work ahead of you to get picked up into Air Force flight training. Thats the same with any branch of service. Go Army!

Check into both colleges' ROTC programs because what degree you have almost doesnt matter but a techinical degree would benefit you much more.

Just my .02,

Forest Lightle

Having flown with ex Air Force as well as ex Navy and Marines in my civilian career, I can definitley say one thing- the Navy and the Marines were ALWAYS more laid back and fun in the cockpit. Most (not all- there was a Sled driver who was pretty cool) Air Force guys tend to have a chip on their shoulders, and were USUALLY a pain in the @$$ to fly with. Again, I say USUALLY, not ALWAYS.

That all being said, the QOL at the Air Force is DEFINITLEY better, but Air Force guys, side by side next to Navy or Marines, tend to be a bunch of pansies.

Very much a more `corporate`environment in the Air Force, rather than a `military´ one.

But whatever suits you best, go for it! You won´t regret going the military route, wether it´s Air Force or the Navy or Marines.

Disclaimer- I spent 4 years in the Marines, and if I had to go back, at this point it would be to the Air Force. But ONLY because I´ve already done the Marine route, and I earned my bragging rights.

So for the airforce/navy/marines how is the aircraft selection determined? How do they decide wether to assign you to transport, fighters or helicopters?

Its been about 9 years but when I went through with pilot training (52 weeks) half way between you track select in either the T-38 for fighters/bombers or the T-1 (Beech400) for transports. You are rank ordered with your classmates, and depending how well you did you get to pick your future. In my class everyone got a choice for fighters or heavies. The final selection on graduation is up to the needs of the Air Force. I'm separating this fall but its been the best experience of my life. I've probably been to more countries than not. For an aviation start I highly recommend the military any any of its branches.

strictly careerwise, go the armed forces route. you'll get to a major in just about the same time as the "traditional" route, but your pay is much better along the way, and the airlines will know the kind of training you recieved. the problem with the armed forces is the commitment. for twleve years you have only a little, if any, choice in where you live.

that means that if you happen to be in some random city, and you meet a girl that you really like, then you can't be an idiot and move to the other side of the country for her. would that be a stupid thing to do? yes. but personally, i like having that kind of freedom.

i have four very close friends of mine who are air force pilots. three of them hate the military. one guy says that fighters are lonely and he wishes he worked in a crew environment. another one told me that the military takes the fun out of everything - even jumping out of an airplane. i know a lot of people would disagree with these statements, but i guess they just tell you that the military isn't for everyone.

Go military. You got 5 choices, all of which pay for your mulit-million flight school.

1) Navy : Spend 6 months at a time looking at 5000 other horny guys
2) Coasties : Not to bad. Lots of interesting places to be based and one
hell of a satisfying job.
3) Marines: Yea right. Dig a hole in the ground and call it home, eat sh*t
from a plastic bag (MRE's)
4) Army : See Marines
5) Air Force: Lots of choices to fly interesting stuff, be based damned
near anywhere in the world, (or get to see it). While
TDY, have clean sheets, a working remote for the
TV, and good golf courses.

Did 12 yrs active in the USAF. Enjoyed all but 2 1/2 yrs. By the time you can get out, the airline industry will be better off and if you wanted to, finish your 20 with a guard or reserve unit.

:)

USAF its the best place to go. The ranks dont move as fast as the other three, but the individual is well compensated.. I would love to fly USAF, but I cant.

Alex

I was prior Navy (F-14) and won't get into the bragging rights thing but if I were advising a young man today I would say USAF is the way to go. The six month cruises on the boat are hard on families. The Air Force is a more civil place to work and they have some awesome airplanes. When we used to fly cross country we would always stop at AF bases for the night because their facilities were always so much better than ours. When the Navy built Naval Air Stations they would go out and build a nice runway and then run out of money. They would then ask DOD for more money to build nice facilities which they never got. The Air Force on the other hand would start first by building beautiful facilities and approach DOD for more money to put in a runway. They always got that money! I guess it proves the Air Force is smarter in that respect. Coast Guard is another good option because of their unique mission but I honestly do not know enough about it to make a case. A friend was there and flew C-130s and had a lot of good things to say about it. The Navy is good training but a hard life; but, those F-14 night carrier operations make for some good stories.... and bragging rights! Good Luck.....

One other thing about the Navy, Marines, and the Coasties......You have about a 50 - 50 chance of getting helo's. The army has very, very few fixed wing aircraft. :cool:

This guy is crazy. 2-4 years as a CFI? Are you joking? Only if you have 3 DUI's. I have a former student who went from 0 time to airline pilot at a jet regional in 13 months (he were so young that going to a prop regional with 12 month upgrades wouldn't help him). 4 months of that was as a CFI. And that was with taking 6 months off inbetween the ratings and job due to family issues. The cost? He spent around $33k total.

I live near a large Navy base. I have neighbors that are F18 guys. All but one of them have roommates, and the one guy that does not has an ironing board for living room furniture. Yeah, that's a great life...

What's that? We're invading IRAN? Off you go. Base closing? Sorry you have to move. I went through that when I was growing up (dad was AF) and lived in more places as a kid than most people do their whole lives. At least with the airlines, if you don't like it, you quit, there's no 12 year deal. If the base closes, you have the choice to commute.

Military is a good route for SOME, but don't go to the military just because it's cheaper, or 'quicker' (it isn't IMO), go because you actually want to serve your country!!!

Yeah I grew up in a navy family and budget cut time was very stressfull. The difference between military stability and regional airline stability is people will always want to go to chicago. However people dont like spending money on the military in peace time.

Join the military because you want to be an officer and do the things officers do (which may not necessarily be flying airplanes). Join the military because you want that kind of lifestyle. Don't join the military because you want a flying career or because you think it's the quickest way to the majors because you will be miserable. Flying is only part of the job. This is not a flying career. You don't just fly a 3-4 day trip, come home, play golf for 3 days and then do another 3-4 day trip. It's staff work, writing OPR's and LOE's, etc... Lots of stuff totally unrelated to flying. You may get 3 flying assignments in a row after pilot training, but after that, plan on a staff tour. 3 years of the Pentagon for example. No flying what-so-ever. Just plan on doing 10 years and separating (which ends up to be about 11.5-12)? Fine, but going from a Major in the Air Force, making near $100k a year to the right seat of an airliner making $35k a year on probation may be a slap in the face. With a family, taking a pay cut like that may not be possible. This is when the Air Force throws the bonus du jour in your face, which right now is $125,000 for 5 more years, and you say, "Hmmmmm, should I stay for another 5?". At this point, you're possibly a DO (director of operations), flying once or twice a month to maintain currency. You get to your 16.5-17 years and at this point you ask yourself, why should I separate now when I can retire in 3 more years at 42ish years old with 50% of your salary and medical benefits for the rest of your life? What I'm trying to say is, the career progression of a pilot on active duty in the Air Force is designed to take you more and more out of the cockpit and put you behind a desk. It's called being an officer (a leader). It's not a flying career. Just be forwarned because I know a lot of youngens see these posters and TV commercials with F-16's, C-17's, you name it and possibly get suckered into something they may want or be ready for.

That said, the military has great opportunities, which may not be aviation opportunites and is what you make of it. You will not be able to do the things you'll do in the US Air Force anywhere else in the world.

I've got two words: Go Guard!!

Yah I was thinking about that too. Since I was little I wanted to be a officer in the armed forces. So I dont know If I would be able to leave the military after just 10 years. I think if I went that route I would fall in love with serving in the military and not be able to leave.

Well then that's good. I was under the impression you were wanting to use the military as a stepping stone to the airlines.

If you can still say that after 10 years, more power to you. ;)

Go to college and do your flying. Get your ratings done and flight instruct during college. You will graduate at 22 and be at a regional airline! You will also get significantly more flight time by staying civil. So, if you love to fly, in some ways it's better to stay out of the forces. Some guys fly 2000 or so hours in a 8-10 year military career. However, both routes would be good ones to take. You will end up in the same spot in the end. Best of luck and fly safe!

I would have loved to have gone military, but I don't think that it is for everyone.

A couple of things to consider:

If you fail to complete flight training, you may still be obligated to serve out the rest of your enlistment term.

Not all airlines accept helicopter time on a 1:1 basis. Some make you apply a conversion factor.

$100k as a major....:confused:

My father retired as a Lt. Col in the mid-90's and wasn't making ANYWHERE NEAR $100k. He retired making around $30k in pension (after 22 years of active service).

Looking at current the Air Force pay bands, a major makes about $5500/month @ the ten year level. How in the hell do you get $100k out of it?!? What additional pay are you adding into that base pay?

flight pay, plus BAS and BAH depending on where you live. 100,000 might be stretching it a little bit though. The pay cut for the first year of a major airline job is painful regardless of military or civilian background.

My take home pay is close to the equivalent of 100K straight salary as an O-3 if you add in all the extras. BAH is huge in some areas and tax free!

I was a reserve bum so I never got close to that.

Don't forget the bonus of up to $25K/year many Majors/LCDRs are making as well! That alone will drive most salaries over $100K.

Ok, lots of people don't realize what you'd have to make as a civilian to live like you were in the military. I should have been a bit more clear, but it's not necessarily be $100k cash in your hand. I'm talking everything and in order to separate and live like you were as an O-4 when you're a civilian, you need to take all that into consideration.

O-4 base pay, according to 2006 scales is $5,131.80 a month with 8+ years of service. Flight pay, for someone who has been flying 6+ years is $650 a month. BAS (Basic Allowance for Subsistence) is $187.49 and BAH (Basic Housing Allowance) of course varies with where you live, but where I'm based, an O-4 with dependents makes $1,300 a month. At Travis AFB, it's $1,979. So, all that, using $1300 a month for BAH, an O-4 is making $87,231.48 a year. At Travis AFB, it'd be $95,379.48 a year. An airline is not going to adjust your income for where you live. In addition, BAH and BAS are not taxed. So that's $18k-25k a year that is untaxed. What about free medical? I pay $10 a month for my wife's dental coverage and that's it. Medical is paid for. Even working for a company with a benefits package, what are you paying for medical for a family? $100-150 a month? I have no idea. That's another $1,200-1,800 a year. I didn't even include deployments. Combat pay, tax free, family separation pay. Someone above mentioned the bonus. Take $90k+$25k=$115k a year for an O-4.

Last year, as an O-2, with 7 months of tax free, combat pay, family separation, etc... I made over $65,000. I only paid tax on about $30k of it. Again, I'm not sure why people only look at base pay when calculating what we make. Of course, when you retire, you only get a pension based off of your base pay.

Bragging rights? Not too many airliners land on boats. IMHO half of the guys I have flown with in commercial aviation that were fighter guys had the worst CRM I've seen. If you want a commercial aviation career and that is your #1 goal in aviation go fly a C-130, C-5 or some other transport. You'll log much more flying time than anything single seat and develop important crew skills.
In one of the earlier posts was a good point. In the military you at least will not be broke. I would also consider going into the guard or reserves too. Anything that can get you into a pilot slot is better than not. Best of luck to you.

What everyone is forgetting (which is VERY BIG) is the non-pay "bennies" that comes from serving active/guard/reserve. Using the commissary "grocery store", base gas station, rec facilities, golf course, etc. All of which will save you several thousands of $$$ each year. Pretty much saved me when I went out to HNL as a DC-10 F/E on probation (takehome was $1600 month and rent was $2000 a month) Was able to use Kaneohe Marine Base Hawaii and it was on an average about 25% cheaper to buy there than in Kailua.

Id say go with the millitary. I have always felt that a degree should be in something other than just Airplane Driving, so you have somewhat of a back-up plan for the day your pancreas goes tango uniform. (It is not in the MEL.)

Fighter guys generally have no trouble getting hired at majors. They can learn CRM. Fly fixed wing military if you can, and if you have the choice, select the aircraft that YOU would most like to fly, it won't affect your civilian career much either way.

The only downside I can think of for going the military route is as a canadian I would be in the RCAF. Which our Airforce is a complete joke! If I went through a flight college in the States than I would be able to get a job lined up in the states after.
But I guess we are suppose to be getting the F-35s to replace our hornets so that would be good. Plus there is always the oppritunity to go to the US airforce test pilot school at edwards, I hear they take some canadians. That way I would be able to be loaned to either the US Airforce or Navy. But for that I would have to get fighters not helicopters(damn Sea Kings and HUEY's) or Transport.
I hear lots of stories about Canadian pilots on exchange with the US AirForce and Navy. Any of you military guys know any or anything about it?
Any of your opinions change that it is the Canadian Airforce, not the American?

I can't think of any reason to avoid RCAF, my buddy did an exchange tour (non-flying) and enjoyed it. As long as you get into fixed-wing, but that applies to the US services too. Hornet's a great airplane, I wouldn't ***** if you can get it. I do not know what their service commitment is, presumably no more than ten years?

Cool Canadian
 

Back in the '70s, we had a Canadian exchange pilot at Edwards flying with the A-10 joint test force. He explained a scar on his forehead: "Had to jump out of an F-104 on a low-level flight." Someone asked: "Engine quit?" He said: "Naw---hit a tree."

The service commitment is 7 years after training. Yah I would definitly want to get the hornet. But I think it would be preety cool to fly the Hurc or the aurora on sub patrols too.