Mason32

You are making assumptions, when it does not actually say that. It said "they" did blah blah blah.... not I, or We, or Our... your reading things into it that are not there.

Why should management agree to anything, the fools in the front seats keep dropping the brake on time, and getting from A to B on time.... and that's a fact from the DOT, based on their published on time performance. The pilots at that company are not union pilots, they may pay dues and carry a card, but that's it. Doesn't anybody there know how to go out and preflight an airplane? They are probably all waiting until the last flight of the day to write stuff up as well... 5 years in negotiations and the place is still running on time everyday??? GET REAL.

ToiletDuck

It's a little counter productive to do everything you can to help your company lose business which in turn gives less money to fight for. There is nothing about Eagle that is industry leading by any means. The contract is as middle of the road as they come.

Also AE is not a money making machine. That company has been specifically used as a leverage tool against the AMR pilot group for contract negotiations and argued paycuts. If we used your definition I can't think of another regional that is helping the demise of of a mainline pilot group more than AE.

IBPilot

the search key is a wonderful function. When I get back from this out and back I will show you where you said it. If you don't delete it by then.

IBPilot

THANK YOU!!!!!
but he won't admit it. He'll just revert back to name calling like on the playground.

ToiletDuck

I don't expect name calling but I do expect a "if you did a little research". I'll make it easy.

ar101610q.htm

Basically saying "Hey we need to make our company more valuable. Lets sell Eagle". They were doing it to boost the value by off loading the expensive regional. If AE were making money hand over fist as he argues they wouldn't be sold. They'd be a positive force on the revenue stream. After the market started to take a dive they canceled the sell because they wouldn't be worth much. Once the market returns they will be back on the chopping block.

BoilerUP

"80 for 80"

Mason32

As much as I hate to agree with you. I can't argue with that paragraph. All I could say is that their middle of the road contract, as you call it, was written over 12 years ago... and since by your definition it's middle of the road... other still have a long way to go.

Have you looked at any of the stockholders report to see how much Eagle profits each year.... after paying AMR $30 for a bag of ice, and $150 for the use of an APU (even if they don't use it).

There is probably alot of truth in that statement. It would also be true to say that of any / and all regionals.... However, AMR originally purchased their subcontractors and made Eagle for the purpose of control and brand protection. Whipsawing was an added bonus for them. The original intention was never to undercut mainline; their original idea was that AA would become the transcon and international carrier and Eagle would grow to the domestic carrier. This goes all the way back to RC and was repeated in the annual reports as recently as last year... well that would be 2007 now (Happy New Year to you by the way). All of that is vastly different from other startup companies whose original business model was/is to undercut somebody elses flying.

That all being said... the end result in regards to Eagle is that you have made a fair description of the current situation.

Really? How are the Midwest pilots doing right now? While I agree that AMR uses both the APA and EGL ALPA pilot groups against eachother, I do not agree with your above statement. In many cases a concessionary contract is better than unemployed.

So, how can we go about getting a national list?

my suggestions are that it starts at the top... and I understand ALPA has a committee working on this idea... correct?

so,

1 - Create an ALPA standard basic pilot contract.
2 - Include payscales for all types / categories of aircraft
3 - Change national by laws so that no MEC may ever accept less than
the ALPA basic pilot contract
4 - Each MEC would remain free to negotiate above the basic contract
just nothig below.... without National approval (covers ch.11 stuff)
5 - Build scope to not just protect your flying, but prohibit you from
flying somebody elses equipment & routes
6 - create a national list to be effective on XXXX date for all new hires
7 - Legacy pilots remain as they are with company seniority, and if ever
furloughed - transfered - merged - bought they go ahead of all
national list pilots, and are either stapled or merged through
negotiation

This would provide more protection than all current flying pilots currently have, and allow the implmentation of a national list. Eventually, when all of us are gone, the only people left will be the national list folks. We will have taken a huge step to restoring the profession without hurting ourselves in the process.

Mason32

I think you are quoting cut and pasted sections from company releases...
or something old. At the time, I did not know how to use the quoting functions very well. My fault.

ToiletDuck

1. You're only as good as your current contract. Whether it's 1 week or 12yrs old.

2. While I don't like the Midex situation the airline would not exist at all without the help of RAH. Like or not that's the situation life dealt.

3. Regionals are regionals and how their dealings effects on the markets are no different from one another. A wholly owned or contractor both do the same job and contribute to the same demise or growth at the mainline level. The reason AE is different is because AMR has used them in the past as a money hiding vehicle. By sliding money between the two companies as needed AMR has tried to push for concessions using falsified information/numbers. The numbers you mentioned, ie $30 for ice, are exactly that. They are all owned by the same parent company and it's just money being slid around. AMR is in a tight spot with the amount of debt they have/will have vs. money on hand. They need to show all the revenue they can coming in at this point in time so they show AE as a nice revenue stream that's flowing uphill(the apu fees, ice fees, etc all money going to AMR). Once AMR starts making money again don't be surprised if you start seeing that money flow back downhill to AE to help ease it's debt and make it an easier target for a sale. AMR needs AE at the moment to help it "pad the books".

Mason32

Agreed... my point was that the current fresh contracts aren't that much better than the 12 year old one... and the 12 year old one is still better than most.

Without arguing the Midwest situation further since it could easilly be viewed either way.... I'll pick yet another case where AE isn't as bad as what was/is being done to a major... Didn't Delta just shift all their LGA/DCA shuttle service to RAH? Yes they did, and I am fairly certain you can not say that they would not exist anymore if it were not transfered.

Agreed, but only on a superficial general overview of the industry. One of many differences being that the money from a wholly owned one benifits the parent company, as as you so effectively pointed out in the latter part of your paragraph, and enables them to shift money around more fluidly.

True, it also makes AE appear much less profitable on paper than it actually is.

Disagree strongly. AMR's war chest is close to 6 billion in cash and liquid assets, not including non-liquid assets. Last I checked, and admittedly it was a while ago, no other airline can say that.

Even if they do begin accepting new aircraft, that is a very different kind of debt - capital expenditure - and is amortized in the most effective way to benefit AMR. With the cost of keeping the MD's flying mx wise, the outlay for new planes with initial warranty mx, off warranty reduced mx costs, and even cheaper fuel burn will all but make the cost of new birds a non issue for them.

I do not expect a sale of any kind. If you speak with anybody who had the opportunity to read their sales pitch book the restrictions on Eagles use were such that nobody would ever be interested. The announcement of the sale of Eagle in November 2007 was done immediately after a large stockholding group asked them to spin off or sell the AAdvantage program. It also coincided with the contract ammendmant round negotiations... if you have watched AMR long enough, and from your posting I believe that you have, you will have to agree that when contracts come due, they invariably announce something is for sale. In the words of RC himself to the CEO of United many many years ago... Everything AMR has is for sale, you just can't afford it.

That being said, a spin off to existing shareholders would not be out of the question. It would free Eagle to grow in other directions, or at least one of their certificates to grow in other directions... and since AMR has been busy spinning everything else off the only asset remaining by 2013 will be AA owned by AMR.... everything else being spun off to existing shareholders... or sold outright and leased back to pull the cash out and have yet another deduction for the lease.... effectively they all end up seperate companies but owned and/or operated by the same folks... at that time the will run AA bankrupt and beat all AA unions into regional work rules and compensation.

It may not be common knowledge on these forums, but at places such as Yale, Harvard and a few other Ivy League Schools AMR is used in the MBA program as a business model for how to manage evreything from bank accounts, contractors and employees. They study how AMR pitches one group against another, always keeping every union busy with grievances, and arbitrations and heavy on legal fees... the end result being that by the time the workforce notices something, the train hasn't just left the sation, it's already past you. They even review the Federal appeals courts ruling over AMR's offshore accounts not being subject to IRS or other federal review. It truly is a scary corporation.

You almost have to wonder if it isn't this kind of teaching mentality over the years led to the private banking sector being run much like the airlines always have... bled for everything they could take, and then cry for a bailout.

Now, can we get back to the National List Ideas ?