Will you help out Mesa...National Seniority list?
12-18-2008, 03:46 PM
#21
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Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: EX - OHJFKCRJFO
Posts: 836
What post are you referring to? About 99% of my post are in the Comair Updates thread...
My best friend is a Mesa CA, if he started at Comair he should most definitely be below me.
Don't get all defensive about choosing to work with friends instead of looking at the situation objectively. I have nothing against Mesa pilots, I never said that and I wish them all well, but please do ask to bypass me on our list.
Make a difference... You're a pilot. Want to make a difference? Join the peace corps.
My best friend is a Mesa CA, if he started at Comair he should most definitely be below me.
Don't get all defensive about choosing to work with friends instead of looking at the situation objectively. I have nothing against Mesa pilots, I never said that and I wish them all well, but please do ask to bypass me on our list.
Make a difference... You're a pilot. Want to make a difference? Join the peace corps.
12-18-2008, 06:41 PM
#23
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Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: EX - OHJFKCRJFO
Posts: 836
Originally Posted by DLAJ77
This post is funny. They all would be lucky to be stapled to the bottom of an airlines seniority list.
Originally Posted by SuperPilotJesse
Greedy
12-18-2008, 09:41 PM
#24
*********
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,068
I haven't heard anyone at Mesa express their desire for a national seniority list in the event of a "TU" event.
I don't like the idea personally, and of late, would have no problem entertaining the idea of a job outside of the cockpit in the event of a furlough/job loss. I wouldn't be asking you guys to give up your job/seniority.
It's nice to see one's family and friends enjoy 14-21 days of vacation starting tomorrow, while I have 12 days off for the month, 3 days at a time.
I don't like the idea personally, and of late, would have no problem entertaining the idea of a job outside of the cockpit in the event of a furlough/job loss. I wouldn't be asking you guys to give up your job/seniority.
It's nice to see one's family and friends enjoy 14-21 days of vacation starting tomorrow, while I have 12 days off for the month, 3 days at a time.
12-18-2008, 10:25 PM
#25
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Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: EMB 145 CPT
Posts: 2,934
Originally Posted by SuperPilotJesse
So you're telling me the guys that got hired by Mesa for the "quick upgrade" should now be ahead of me at my airline?
Wrong.
You're going to reward them for being greedy by working for someone who is known as a dirtbag. Or being greedy and not doing their research on the company they will be working for?
You're going to punish me because I took the time to do a little research on who I would be tying my life to. You're going to put me back in my life plan because I didn't go with the quick upgrade but with a company who had a better reputation?
I understand what you're saying... and I have just as good as a reason to gripe; I am furloughed. But you don't hear me going around and whining about it. I made my decisions I will live with it.
Mesa pilots looking for a bailout. You'll get more sympathy from congress.
Retarded.
Wrong.
You're going to reward them for being greedy by working for someone who is known as a dirtbag. Or being greedy and not doing their research on the company they will be working for?
You're going to punish me because I took the time to do a little research on who I would be tying my life to. You're going to put me back in my life plan because I didn't go with the quick upgrade but with a company who had a better reputation?
I understand what you're saying... and I have just as good as a reason to gripe; I am furloughed. But you don't hear me going around and whining about it. I made my decisions I will live with it.
Mesa pilots looking for a bailout. You'll get more sympathy from congress.
Retarded.
Originally Posted by Bond
Nevets,
I've always respected your opinion, but you've left a very big detail out of the equation...poorly managed companies such as UA and MESA. See with a national seniority list you're punishing the pilots of the well ran and employee friendly companies. This is an issue that you cannot fix long term, there will always be awful management teams driving airlines into the ground....why punish everyone else on their account. It almost goes against capitalism. If UA goes out (not wishing so by any means) or if Mesa goes out then things run their course and we will back up those brothers and sisters with preferential interviews, and job fairs; but you're dillusional if you think that 1 list will be the end of whipsaw....How about alter-egos like gojets...a perfect example of a very immoral management team getting around a contract and an already existing seniority list by creating an alter ego with contract workers.
No, no, this is not a perfect system, but I'm not paying for Tilton's and J.O.'s mistakes, I'm sorry for the brothers and sisters at those companies, but such as life.
I've always respected your opinion, but you've left a very big detail out of the equation...poorly managed companies such as UA and MESA. See with a national seniority list you're punishing the pilots of the well ran and employee friendly companies. This is an issue that you cannot fix long term, there will always be awful management teams driving airlines into the ground....why punish everyone else on their account. It almost goes against capitalism. If UA goes out (not wishing so by any means) or if Mesa goes out then things run their course and we will back up those brothers and sisters with preferential interviews, and job fairs; but you're dillusional if you think that 1 list will be the end of whipsaw....How about alter-egos like gojets...a perfect example of a very immoral management team getting around a contract and an already existing seniority list by creating an alter ego with contract workers.
No, no, this is not a perfect system, but I'm not paying for Tilton's and J.O.'s mistakes, I'm sorry for the brothers and sisters at those companies, but such as life.
The Fee For Departure Work Group is already working on contract standards to be negotiated in when most of them come up for section 6 bargaining. This together with scope and seniority migration mechanisms built into them will eliminate the ability of managements creating alter ego airlines. Scope such as what Mesa and XJT have. And seniority migration such as the Canadian regionals have. These things are not just theories. They are proven everyday with existing contracts.
Its like any seniority integration. Most everyone is unhappy with it but once its done its behind you and with this idea it will never have to be addressed anymore in the future. Its a one time sacrifice for the betterment of the whole profession going forward.
If you just provide preferential interviews, you just play into mangament's ability to recycle pilots for cheaper first year pay. Its exactly what they count on. But with the Fee For Departure ideas implemented, managament loses the ability to whipsaw us against a cheaper carier because the pilots will have leverage with management's knowledge that they will not be able to recycle your career or hope you just leave the industry for the next starry eyed 22 year old (no offense to starry eyed pilots on their first job because I've been there before).
Just remember that your benevolent or employee friendly well run mangement at your current job or next one is not going to last forever. And you never know how the next management team is going to turn out. Lets make the sacrifice now and get it behind us so that pilots don't keep making sacrafices because of their poor mangement teams decade after decade after decade. Because like you said, there will always be awful mangement teams so there will always be pilots making that sacrfice to continue their profession if we don't fix this now.
12-18-2008, 11:14 PM
#26
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Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: EX - OHJFKCRJFO
Posts: 836
Nevets: Thank you for your eloquent and thought out arguement and not coming at me with an ad hominem attack.
However I still have to disagree at this point and I guess we will just have to leave it at that.
Good day to you sir.
However I still have to disagree at this point and I guess we will just have to leave it at that.
Good day to you sir.
12-19-2008, 12:00 AM
#27
Banned
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: EMB 145 CPT
Posts: 2,934
Originally Posted by SuperPilotJesse
Nevets: Thank you for your eloquent and thought out arguement and not coming at me with an ad hominem attack.
However I still have to disagree at this point and I guess we will just have to leave it at that.
Good day to you sir.
However I still have to disagree at this point and I guess we will just have to leave it at that.
Good day to you sir.
12-19-2008, 05:41 AM
#28
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Joined APC: Aug 2006
Position: E-190/175/170
Posts: 172
I agree that a national seniority list has the potential to greatly improve this profession (if done right). If the end result (at minimum) is career portability..ie, if I leave one carrier to go to another, I can take my seniority number with me and not have to start at square one on the pay scale ladder. Unless of course my national seniority number happens to be at the bottom of the new carriers list.
Setting all the other issues aside..., the one that I can't see a way around is lets say I'm a mainline Capt. at a large pt 121 legacy carrier. For what ever reason, I wanna move to another legacy carrier. I know that I can now take my Nat'l seniority number with me and (if hired) still receive pay that is close to what I had or better at the original carrier. What incentive does the new airline have to hire me when they could hire another pilot with the same type rating who would be junior hence "cheaper" to fly the same airframe?
Setting all the other issues aside..., the one that I can't see a way around is lets say I'm a mainline Capt. at a large pt 121 legacy carrier. For what ever reason, I wanna move to another legacy carrier. I know that I can now take my Nat'l seniority number with me and (if hired) still receive pay that is close to what I had or better at the original carrier. What incentive does the new airline have to hire me when they could hire another pilot with the same type rating who would be junior hence "cheaper" to fly the same airframe?
12-19-2008, 06:26 AM
#29
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Joined APC: Feb 2008
Position: new guy
Posts: 382
So, Mesa pilots take jobs at below minimum wage, and then want to be allowed into companies that pay slightly better wages somewhere beside the bottom? If you are part of the market force driving down pilot wages, I think you have no room to complain if you want to change companies or are forced to because your company fails.
A NSL or something similar will never work as long as you have no manner to work in the military pilots. We are always hired with significantly less hours than our civilian counterparts (at least single-seat types) because of the nature of our experience. So, you think that companies are going to change that because you want 300 hour Mesa hires to start their seniority ahead of a 1500 hr fighter pilot just entering the 'commercial' world at 10-13 years into their pilot career? What about other than 121 experience. You guys don't seem to get that your heavily unionized group is causing many of your problems. You want to regulate it even further when your success would increase as a group with less stringent union rules for each of your companies. But, I know you will flame me for not being pro big labor. Well, as long as you want your unions to keep making money while you keep losing money, I guess you'll be happy. Right now, you and the UAW have much in common. Keep blaming your evil management for your problems and maybe the government will bail you out.
A NSL or something similar will never work as long as you have no manner to work in the military pilots. We are always hired with significantly less hours than our civilian counterparts (at least single-seat types) because of the nature of our experience. So, you think that companies are going to change that because you want 300 hour Mesa hires to start their seniority ahead of a 1500 hr fighter pilot just entering the 'commercial' world at 10-13 years into their pilot career? What about other than 121 experience. You guys don't seem to get that your heavily unionized group is causing many of your problems. You want to regulate it even further when your success would increase as a group with less stringent union rules for each of your companies. But, I know you will flame me for not being pro big labor. Well, as long as you want your unions to keep making money while you keep losing money, I guess you'll be happy. Right now, you and the UAW have much in common. Keep blaming your evil management for your problems and maybe the government will bail you out.
12-19-2008, 06:47 AM
#30
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Joined APC: Aug 2006
Position: E-190/175/170
Posts: 172
Originally Posted by milky
So, Mesa pilots take jobs at below minimum wage, and then want to be allowed into companies that pay slightly better wages somewhere beside the bottom? If you are part of the market force driving down pilot wages, I think you have no room to complain if you want to change companies or are forced to because your company fails.
A NSL or something similar will never work as long as you have no manner to work in the military pilots. We are always hired with significantly less hours than our civilian counterparts (at least single-seat types) because of the nature of our experience. So, you think that companies are going to change that because you want 300 hour Mesa hires to start their seniority ahead of a 1500 hr fighter pilot just entering the 'commercial' world at 10-13 years into their pilot career? What about other than 121 experience. You guys don't seem to get that your heavily unionized group is causing many of your problems. You want to regulate it even further when your success would increase as a group with less stringent union rules for each of your companies. But, I know you will flame me for not being pro big labor. Well, as long as you want your unions to keep making money while you keep losing money, I guess you'll be happy. Right now, you and the UAW have much in common. Keep blaming your evil management for your problems and maybe the government will bail you out.
A NSL or something similar will never work as long as you have no manner to work in the military pilots. We are always hired with significantly less hours than our civilian counterparts (at least single-seat types) because of the nature of our experience. So, you think that companies are going to change that because you want 300 hour Mesa hires to start their seniority ahead of a 1500 hr fighter pilot just entering the 'commercial' world at 10-13 years into their pilot career? What about other than 121 experience. You guys don't seem to get that your heavily unionized group is causing many of your problems. You want to regulate it even further when your success would increase as a group with less stringent union rules for each of your companies. But, I know you will flame me for not being pro big labor. Well, as long as you want your unions to keep making money while you keep losing money, I guess you'll be happy. Right now, you and the UAW have much in common. Keep blaming your evil management for your problems and maybe the government will bail you out.
Those are just off the cuff suggestions but you get the idea. The important thing is industry recognition as a "professional pilot" criteria is gonna be critical in how we implement it in order for this to be beneficial to anybody.
I'm sure there are folks alot smarter than me that would have better ways to make this work.
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