Originally Posted by DLAJ77

This post is funny. They all would be lucky to be stapled to the bottom of an airlines seniority list.

Originally Posted by milky

So, Mesa pilots take jobs at below minimum wage, and then want to be allowed into companies that pay slightly better wages somewhere beside the bottom? If you are part of the market force driving down pilot wages, I think you have no room to complain if you want to change companies or are forced to because your company fails.

Some choose to blame Mesa pilots for the rough edges of the industry as a whole. Today many pilots are flying jets that are close to or match the size of jets flown by mainline carriers. These pilots are earning quite a bit less in real dollars for this work. It is inaccurate to solely blame Mesa pilots for the market conditions that have resulted in this. Today a regional carrier, RAH is replacing Midwest airlines and Aloha flights at lower wages. I do not see the same level of angst directed at this company as at Mesa.

A NSL or something similar will never work as long as you have no manner to work in the military pilots.... So, you think that companies are going to change that because you want 300 hour Mesa hires to start their seniority ahead of a 1500 hr fighter pilot just entering the 'commercial' world at 10-13 years into their pilot career? What about other than 121 experience.

I certainly respect those who have served. However, flying an F16 or AH1 relates to airline flying the same as riding a unicycle relates to deep sea fishing. A military pilot has demonstrated an ability to learn complicated aircraft systems, and certain decision-making skills. These decision making skills may or may not translate over to airline flying. The amount of knowledge transfer varies with the military aircraft type flown and type of flying. The armed services are arguably the best training ground for helicopter pilots. Yet a pilot leaving the military with UH60 combat flight time seeking a law enforcement flying job would still have to enter the agency or department as a patrol officer and later be selected and trained to fly in the air unit.

Airlines have preferencially hired military pilots in the past. I do not think this is necessarily because military pilots are better than civilian counter-parts who also meet hiring requirements. I think this has occurred mainly because former military pilots became managers at some airlines and were interested in hiring others with military flight experience.

If preference is to be given to military experience, then I would argue that other experience should be given varying hiring weights. Is 4000TT/1000 turbine PIC enough of a requirement, or should extra credit be given for military time, previous 121 time, 135 time, international flight time, glass cockpit experience? Military experience is one of the ways that a pilot can demonstrate the potential skills and traits needed for successful airline flying.

You guys don't seem to get that your heavily unionized group is causing many of your problems....But, I know you will flame me for not being pro big labor. Well, as long as you want your unions to keep making money while you keep losing money, I guess you'll be happy. Right now, you and the UAW have much in common. Keep blaming your evil management for your problems and maybe the government will bail you out.

Originally Posted by rickair7777

BTW, ALPA would never have the guts to propose anything of this sort...it would be bound to offend some dues payers.

Originally Posted by paxhauler85

I haven't heard anyone at Mesa express their desire for a national seniority list in the event of a "TU" event.

Originally Posted by Nevets

What I'm saying is that in the long run we will all be rewarded regardless of why someone went to work at MAG. Its exactly about not being greedy. We must all sacrifice a little, not be greedy, in order to improve the profession.




I didn't leave that detail out. I even mentioned that maybe this should not be retroactive to airlines that are no longer in existence. Like I already said, there will be some sacrifice (you call it punishment) but that is what its going to take to fix this mess once in for all. Its a shame this wasn't something thought of in the 30's when this profession began so know its up to us to make it how it should have been.

The Fee For Departure Work Group is already working on contract standards to be negotiated in when most of them come up for section 6 bargaining. This together with scope and seniority migration mechanisms built into them will eliminate the ability of managements creating alter ego airlines. Scope such as what Mesa and XJT have. And seniority migration such as the Canadian regionals have. These things are not just theories. They are proven everyday with existing contracts.

Its like any seniority integration. Most everyone is unhappy with it but once its done its behind you and with this idea it will never have to be addressed anymore in the future. Its a one time sacrifice for the betterment of the whole profession going forward.

If you just provide preferential interviews, you just play into mangament's ability to recycle pilots for cheaper first year pay. Its exactly what they count on. But with the Fee For Departure ideas implemented, managament loses the ability to whipsaw us against a cheaper carier because the pilots will have leverage with management's knowledge that they will not be able to recycle your career or hope you just leave the industry for the next starry eyed 22 year old (no offense to starry eyed pilots on their first job because I've been there before).

Just remember that your benevolent or employee friendly well run mangement at your current job or next one is not going to last forever. And you never know how the next management team is going to turn out. Lets make the sacrifice now and get it behind us so that pilots don't keep making sacrafices because of their poor mangement teams decade after decade after decade. Because like you said, there will always be awful mangement teams so there will always be pilots making that sacrfice to continue their profession if we don't fix this now.

Originally Posted by Nevets

Sure, especially if my airline uses ex-Mesa aircraft.





There may be a point by not doing this retroactively. But certainly going forward it would be a great idea regardless of how some particular company is doing because there will always be a company that is not doing "good." And ALPA has actually proposed to do this on two different fronts. Its in the works right now as we speak. The Fee For Departure Work Group is working diligently towards this. Of course, not everyone is for it. I think that people just need to look at other unions and see how this type of idea really benefits their respective professions and then maybe they can see past the possible short term sacrifice and see the big picture.



With a labor friendly administration, there is an excellent opportunity to include this into contracts through section 6 negotiations. The government gives pilots leverage with a labor friendly NMB and therefore pilots can use that in their negotiations with management to have this in their contract. The real problem I think you alluded to is getting a consensus of pilots willing to strike over this idea because I think that is what its going to take.

Again, maybe not doing this retroactively for those airlines that are not in existance but definately for anyone else that is around when this is implemented, including Mesa.



End of whipsawing and downward pressure on wages and work rules from airline pilots competing agains each other.



Not necessarily. The Fee For Departure Work Group is working on a seniority migration mechanism that would leave separate contracts in place.



Never say wont happen.



Actually, the time is now! We have a friendly administration coming to office and most contracts coming up for negotiation at around the same time. The UAL MEC is just trying to push start the idea. But there is already another group of MECs that were working on this already. They include all ALPA MECs of the fee for departure carriers. This is not about hand outs. This is about ending whipsaw once and for all. Sure it will take the sacrifice of maybe seeing someone from another carrier come into your list above you but you have to look at the big picture of how much of a game changer this would be. We need to get out of the mentality of it always being all about me and think of how it would benefit our profession and in turn benefit you in the long run.

Originally Posted by SuperPilotJesse

click the "+ on all the " " you want and then the normal Quote button on the last.

Originally Posted by rickair7777

This is correct. A review of the original poster's history shows that he is NOT a mesa pilot. His intent looks like flamebait. I'll leave the thread open since people are having civilized discussion.

Originally Posted by DublinFlyer

This is silly, and what I would consider an inflammatory post.

Mesa is NOT going "teats up" (I doubt it will let me say the real word for T, haha) anytime soon.

Hey OP... why don't you go read the thread "A Call for Professional Airline Pilots" or whatever that thread was called.