Atwoo155

So if they did take the Mesa pilots what would happen to the people on furlough? Is it fair to push them further down the list. How is it OK to save one ALPA job at the cost of another? I say it would be fair to put them at the bottom of the list for seniority but Captains would remain Captains, and FO's would remain FO's until their seniority would allow them to get off reserve or upgrade. In addition to this those on furlough would have to be recalled before even one outside pilot steps foot on property.

Flight84

All of those on the street would have to come back. I would believe that it would work like to J4J there has to be open postions on property before they would be able to bring new people in. We already said no to the 900's over a year ago due to the fact that they did want to pay us 900 pay which is good that we stood up and said no. So I really doubt that we would bring them on property with the pilots and allow them to step in front of alot of our guys in senoirty. But that is my two cents and take it as that. Good luck to all.

RJSAviator76

Why not go retroactive - as long as the pilot is currently flying?

So basically, Mesa puts Aloha under, 300+ Aloha pilots are on the street, but hey, now that Mesa is against the ropes, we should all cave in for the sakes of unity. Some fairness. I mean I understand not including places like Braniff, Eastern, but to not include Aloha/ATA/Champion pilots??!

Gotta ask... why not?

winglet

Will you help out ... ?


Air Canada Jazz
Air Midwest
Air Transat
Air Wisconsin
Alaska
Aloha
Aloha Island Air
American Eagle
ASTAR Air Cargo
ATA Airlines, Inc.
Atlantic Southeast
Bearskin
Calm Air
Canjet
Capital Cargo Int’l Airlines
Champion Air
Colgan
Comair
CommutAir
Continental
Delta
Evergreen International Airlines
ExpressJet
FedEx
First Air
Freedom Airlines
Gemini Air Cargo
Hawaiian
Kelowna Flightcraft, Ltd.
Kitty Hawk AirCargo
Mesa Airlines
Mesaba
Midwest Airlines
Northwest
Piedmont
Pinnacle
PSA
Ryan
Spirit
Sun Country
Trans States Airlines
United
Wasaya


Yes, and I have. Good luck to us all...


Winglet

DIEGO

Mesa going TU?

Here’s how I read it…They just settled the Aloha lawsuit for $2M. They just passed a very “management friendly” TA. And if what I’ve been reading is true, JO might stick the pilots out of pay for 2 weeks while realigning bid periods. Which means another $2M+ in cash from paying labor to paying off bonds coming due in January.

You might want to take the guy’s advice in another thread … Buy Mesa stock now and double your money in February.

jeepcrawln

My opinion, if there is a NSL it should only be for the pay scale, it is unfair to punish someone because another airline and their workforce made bad decisions, however if you leave for another company you should be compensated for your experience like you are in ANY OTHER industry.

whiskey72

Give me a break, with all of the propoganda that JO has been putting out there about the contract, the settlement and all of the press releases on the financial sights, the stock would have already been trending up. Is that the case? I think not. it's done nothing but hover if not decline a few cents. Keep telling yourself the world will be okay.

By the way, you've got 100 million coming due in Jan / Feb from all that I read. Where's that money coming from? You'll need a he11 of a lot more than a measly 2 million!

I'd be willing to bet you're one of the 418?

Happy trails!!!

Sniper

(Appologies in advance for the length)

People have touched on some of the many issues involved in a National list, but the biggest will be military pilots and hiring standards, IMO.

There is a sense that, if you flew in the military, you don't have to start @ the bottom, but get to start @ 'the bottom of the top'. I'd guess at least 60% of all mainline pilots currently have military flying in their past (Vietnam trained guys are hitting 60 right now, and thus represent the senior and leadership positions of most career carriers). They all had the opportunity to transfer their military experience to the civilian world.

All of this is being worked on @ the fee for departure level, which explains why it hasn't died yet. There aren't more than a handful of fixed wing military pilots @ the regional level. Once the mainline guys get to vote on this, things will really heat up.

I just can't see any way to integrate the military guys in this. If you give a military pilot credit for years served in any manner, you'd have to justify the simple question - "why?" Why should a dues paying member of this union for the last 5-10 years or more allow a slot above them in this union's national seniority list to a pilot who is not even a member of this union? Objectively, there is no reason for allowing a military pilot to have a 'saved' spot in line, any more so than there is for a citizen @ the DMV - when your # is called, you will be served. That you are a race car driver with 2 Indy 500 wins under your belt is no matter, the minivan driver has been here longer, and will be served first.

It is the difference between a job that awarded based on seniority vs. a job that is awarded based on qualifications (merit based). A national seniority list is not based on qualifications, it is based on seniority only. There is no manner to allow for the qualifications of a particular subset of pilots to equate to seniority within an association. So we are thus left with the only solution to be placing retiring military pilots @ the bottom, along with, at times, 300 hr. TT pilots. This will go over like a ton of bricks, considering that most regionals owe their very existence to the mistake of allowing RJ's to not be scoped in to mainline, because, among other reasons, they aren't going to be acceptable as a starting job for a well qualified applicant, such as a retiring military pilot.

Which brings up the issue of HR departments. Even if current pilots had no say in hiring decisions @ their company, a HR department is going to argue, rightfully so, that an association's list cannot replace their hiring decisions. The mainline HR departments are not currently involved in evaluating the pilots who are entering @ the 'bottom' of the national list. Just b/c TSA management feels a pilot is a good fit for their organization doesn't mean US Airways feels the same way. Heck, just b/c US Airways feels a pilot is a good fit doesn't mean Fed Ex will. But, if a Fed Ex CA retires (in 4 years), the next pilot to come to Fed Ex will not be then chosen by Fed Ex HR, but rather by the national list, which likely will bring in a pilot who most assuredly wasn't initially hired by Fed Ex. Assume, somehow, that all HR departments @ all ALPA carriers will go along with this.

There would also have to be fences and 'employer locks'. If the list were activated today based on length of service within the union or original DOH within the union, I imagine more than a handful of guys flying for CommutAir might want to trade their position as a Saranac Lake based FO for that of a Continental FO who has less seniority with the union b/c they were a C-17 driver when the Saranac Lake FO was hired by CommutAir. How do you integrate the current pilots @ ALPA? Should a 12 year Eagle CA be senior to a 11 year Delta CA? If so, what rights does the Eagle CA have to bump the Delta CA out? Imagine the bump and flush that would happen here. Who would pay for all this training?

Is this only applicable for hiring of new pilots @ a company then? IE, the most senior pilot who wants the job gets the interview? What would happen if HR doesn't hire you - do you just go back into the 'pool' of available pilots for the next opening? Should guys on furlough get any priority to job openings vs. pilots who are gainfully employed, but 'senior'? If you're the senior guy in 'the pool' @ United and really want to work for them, how many times does UA HR have to turn you down before you can't apply to them anymore? Do you only get one shot, like Delta's policy, @ each carrier? Who determines this, company HR or ALPA and 'the list'?

What if you scab - do you lose your position on the list? If so, and ALPA decides to readmit you, do you get your old # back?

So, if a list could actually happen, the end result would be that military pilots (and all others with commensurate experience, to include corporate pilots, foreign pilots, charter pilots, and pilots from other unions, as well as non-union pilots) will be snatched up @ every opportunity to be RJ FO's or prop FO's for regionals. For the next 5 years, the experience level in the regionals would be highly skewed, with virtually every regional CA being vastly less qualified than their FO. After that, things would start to even out, and, about 10 years from now, the whole thing would stabilize to some degree. Hiring standards @ the regionals would go up considerably, and the quality of regional contracts might too.

No matter what, though, you'd still have military pilots coming in @ the bottom, thus impacting the decisions of pilots to join the military in the first place. If choosing your initial employer to be Uncle Sam necessitates either attempting to stay in for life (not easy, especially if everyone else is attempting to do the same thing) or giving other pilots a 5 year head-start (it'll take 5 years to get the qualifications for industry entry for non-military pilots, I figure), the quality of pilot candidates for the military may be impacted, thus impacting national security (yes, seriously).

There are so many issues to overcome, and it would require so much long term, strategic thinking that it's virtually doomed from the start. Who's got to do all of this - a bunch of short-sighted, self-centered pilots. Look no further than this board for evidence of this.

In the end, we are our own worst enemy. If ALPA could do this, than they would also be able to call an SOS. Sadly, there's probably just not enough unity amongst us to get this done. Many carriers would vote out ALPA rather than go along with this, destroying the whole point of a national list. Deregulation killed us in more ways than one.

j1b3h0

How about a national pay scale. One seniority list. Nationwide pay scales. Union provides retirement, so pilots who's carriers go under don't lose their retirement. Can't be an airline pilot if not TRAINED BY THE UNION. Control the talent pool...and guarantee the quality of crew member, like an apprenticeship.
A pilot switching carriers would be revenue neutral - and therefore not burdensome to the airlines.

Nevets

Seniority transportability is something the Fee for Departure Work Group is working towards. This is something that would have to be bargained for. Its not something an airline will give to the pilots.

This is not just Mesa. This is the dozen or so fee for departure MECs that are working towards some kind of seniority transportability. This issue affects everyone equally, not just the Mesa pilots or whoever is the next "Mesa" if you catch my drift.

Military pilots can be assigned a seniority number based on when they become qualified.

The Fee For Departure Work Group is working on seniority transportability as opposed to a NSL. Its probably something of a stepping stone. The Canadian regional pilots already have this and it works good for them. But you are right that the biggest obstacle to this is pilots themselves.

The reason we took paycuts is because of whipsaw. And that didnt require bankruptcy or alter ego airlines. It happens all the time with the fee for departure airlines because they all bid for the same flying. They are all competing against each other and that is fine if we get the pilot costs out of the equation as much as possible. And that is only going to happen if pilots from all the fee for departure airlines come together and get these seniority transportability mechanisms in our contracts. This is what will stop the incentive or pilots "racing to the bottom" just to keep their jobs. If one airline goes out of business because the pilots refuse to take pay cuts and the other airline takes the airplanes and to do that flying, you would be able to excercise your seniority by going with the airplane to the airline that won the bid. This wouldn't help that airline's pilot costs and therefure reduce the probobility of this scenerio repeating itself until we are paid minimum wage.

I don't see it as giving all that much considering the possible rewards and I definately not see it as rolling the dice. I think its more of a gamble if we don't get something like this in place and leave our fate to our respective managements and their collaboration in the race to the bottom.

I disagree on your consensous statement. I've talked to a lot of people that are open to this idea especially now after the whole Skywest situation arose. Our MEC is one of the leaders on this charge and is actively working on it now as we speak. In fact, every fee for departure MEC is working on this and there is a consensous for it among other carriers as well. Its something that will be implemented contract by contract so you will get the opportunity to vote on it when that time comes.

Well, I guess saving a job also means that person pays dues so in a way you are correct.

I think you would see it where you would have to be a current active pilot to exercise your seniority. And or there would have to be vacancies for those who are not to come back. For example, the Fee For Departure Work Group is working on being able to bring your seniority with you if you are senior enough to hold a vacancy at the new airline.

Why not Braniff, Eastern "as long as the pilot is currently flying?" There has to be a cutoff point somewhere.

I think that would be a really good start - baby steps. And I think it was just bad luck to pick an airline like PanAm to make your career. At the time, who would ever thought that PanAm would go out of business afer Kadafi decided to blow up one of your airplanes. I certainly don't blame their pilots for "bad decisions" when it comes to their airline shutting down.