Airline Pilot Central Forums - Great Lakes vs. Flight Express

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Quote:

Originally Posted by FlyingPirate (Post 533587)

Like I said I'm only 21 so pay and QOL is not a huge factor for me, I could live in my car and be ok (not that I would). I'm just looking at the best "experience" for future jobs. I don't want to be stuck doing piston flying then have to go to regional before I can go anywhere else for a career position.

Is there a way for me to get a job with a major or corporate with only piston time?

For the love of god man, don't ever say that pay and QOL aren't important to you. If you value yourself as a professional, they should be your #1 concern! Professional pilots don't go to work to fly airplanes; professional pilots go to work to get paid. Companies require your services as a pilot to keep their business running, don't forget that.

By the way, remember that 135 PIC, even in piston airplanes, is not comparable to puttering around the practice area teaching stalls in a C172. It does look better on a resume by quite a bit. There are lots of alumni from my current company at great corporate/charter/fractional jobs who never had to do a stint in the regionals. Just ask the NJA guys who part-time at my company to keep their pass bennies...

First of all....

I never said anything about working for free. I would never work for $0. I'm not stupid or naive. I am young so having a low QOL would not make much difference to me I will still have a better job than any of my friends. It's just that I want to get good flying experience while I'm young and if Lakes provides a great experience that is what I want.

I would never work for free. No one should.

Thanks though

Quote:

Originally Posted by FlyingPirate (Post 534667)

Nobody said you were going to fly for free. But for $13,000/year you might as well be. Do you consider that a professional wage for a professional pilot? At some point you have to set a limit and walk away from anything that doesn't meet that criteria.

Go to Flight Express.. Better QOL, pay and you've already been offered a job which pays during training and provides housing. GL will just get you in deeper debt than you might already have with flight school or college loans.
Good luck!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mason32 (Post 534609)

And there you have summed up the biggest problem with the profession. Why should you have to live in your car? Do you not value the education, training and experience you have thus far? The notion that newer pilots have that they are somehow less valuable is why these operators get away with paying everybody crap wages. When people like you, educated, and trained in a profession, stop prostituting themselves the whole profession will take a giant leap forward. There is no reason for a part 135/121 new hire pilot to be making less than 40-45k anywhere in the country.

Managements thrive on people saying pay and QOL isn't a big factor, followed by statements such as.....

So, what you are basically saying is that you will work for free if it gives you the hope of someday going to a major..... You need to seriously look at what has happened in this industry over the last 30 years. The days of prostituting yourself for a few years at a regional or charter outfit and then going to a major are all but gone. Sure, if you stay at it long enough you will eventually get to a major... by the time that happens, you will be a pilot with 7-15 year seniority a decent quality of life and a modest income... you will then have to trade that for bottom of the seniority list at the major with no QOL. Do people still go from charter/regionals to majors; sure they do... but nothing like it used to be... and it will only worsen as places like RAH continue to obtain larger jets, and get used to replace more mainline flying.... while doing so on regional pay and rules.

I admire your enthusiam, but you need to do a little research, and soul searching. You have spent a great deal of time and money getting to this point in your career. You should not give away your professional skills for free, simply because you think it may help you get to a major... someday. This is the kind of undercutting that everybody likes to point at places like MESA, RAH, CHQ, TSA and complain about.... except instead of underbidding the CPA, your just helping the companies keep the profession underpaid and compensated.

If you were to be hired now, at either place, when the majors do resume hiring there will be a steady supply of Regional and Charter Captains with thousands of hours of turbine PIC on typed equipment heading for those very few (comparatively) jobs. So, the sooner you, and all newer pilots realize that working for essentially free will not get you to a major any faster, the sooner these companies will be forced to pay better wages in the first place.

Other than that good luck & fly safe

I generally agree with a lot of what you're saying. He should definitely not have the attitude of: "I don't care what I earn." That is definitely not the right perspective to have. I don't think that is the perspective of most Lakers, at all. Believe it or not, I would say most Lakers care about their career earnings an incredible amount. That is why a lot of us go to Lakes. At least that is why I went to Lakes. I didn't want to be stuck with crappy regional wages for 10 years, 20 years, or for the rest of my career. I wanted to get out of the regional system as quick as I possibly could. I personally believe almost all regional pilots are getting shafted, in some way, shape, or form. Whether it's flying major airline routes for half the pay, being on the wrong end of a whipsaw situation, just low pay in general, etc. I just wanted to get shafted for a third of the time. Just because crappy 70+ seat pay can pay a pretty nice mortgage payment, while crappy 19 seat pay can't, doesn't make the crappy 70+ seat pay any more ethical, in my opinion; especially because it is endured for a career, as opposed to a few years. Lakes has had a great track record of getting people to major airlines in a very, very short amount of time; even up until the beginning of last year. Even if one comes to Lakes to get the 1000 PIC turbine, and goes to another regional, that person will still have that sitting in their back pocket, waiting for the majors to hire again. If you look at the seniority list at Lakes, it's hard to find a pilot who has been there more than 5 years. There are a few, but it's rare. Almost all captains have gone on to bigger and better, and very few have made lateral moves.

Quote:

Originally Posted by powrful1 (Post 534596)

The kicker is right before I left it was difficult for captains to get gigs at the majors with only Beech time. Some of the sudo majors yes but, SWA, Delta, United, American no to all. Yet there were a couple to slide through that fence, and USAir, Frontier, Allegiant, and such hired em.

Can't speak for when you were here but with the hiring last year almost everyone I knew who left here went to Delta, NWA, USAir, Southwest, Frontier, Allegent, or a nice corporate job...most straight from the Beech with no jet time. Last I knew UAL, COA, and Jet Blue were the "needs jet time crowd". Its also unfortunate that it's happned but some of those guys have now been furloughed from their major however, they have come back to Lakes as CA's. A job is a job while your furloughed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1900luxuryliner (Post 534688)

I generally agree with a lot of what you're saying...

Thanks, Normally I get blasted all the time, so it's nice to hear when somebody actually agrees...

Quote:

Originally Posted by FlyingPirate (Post 533587)

Is there a way for me to get a job with a major or corporate with only piston time?

A Major? Please. What has your flight school been telling you? First of all, the majors have barely hired a handful of pilots in the past 7.5 years. Northwest, Delta and United hired just a few hundred each in 07-08 then NW and United promptly furloughed all of them. It's only looking worse. Even the crown jewel, FedEx, is soon to furlough at least 400. Guaranteed.

If and when they are stable enough to hire again, you will have THOUSANDS of experienced turbo-jet pilots who are now sitting at the regionals and corporate jets getting in line in front of you which will cause your resume to go to the bottom of the pile at best, into the waste can at worse.

Any corporate job you'll be able to get with low time will pay you peanuts and work you to death. My guess is that you don't care... which is exactly why they will pay you peanuts and work you to death. Believe me, that SJS, Shiny Jet Syndrome will wear off fast after you find yourself waxing the airplane more than flying it. If your lucky, the captain might even let you actually take the controls for a few minutes every few flights. Again, I doubt you'll care.

Having said that. Turbine time, even SIC is worth a lot more than PIC piston time. But Great Lakes is a crappy outfit with miserable (unhappy) pilots working for an unstable company in an unstable industry.

Go to Flight Express. It's stable!! The D/O is a good guy. It's great flying and in 500 hours you will be five-times the pilot you are now. Go there, build some experience and wait for a decent turbine job to come along. Even PIC in a Caravan is turbine PIC and you can slide right into one after 6-12 months at FLX. Caravan jobs are not too hard to find and it's an awesome airplane!

Good luck.

Editing Note: By "miserable" I meant unhappy, just like lots of pilots stuck at low-paying regions. I was NOT commenting on Lake's pilots as people or their personalities.

I second the comment about the Caravan...after 350 in type, I can say I've never flown a more forgiving airplane. If you can fly a 172 safely, you can fly a Caravan...just have to be taught to respect the different technology turning the prop. Even then...the PT6 is pretty bulletproof.

If I had the cross country time for 135 PIC, I'd be at Flight Express in a heartbeat...

I have a buddy who just interviewed at Great Lakes today.

He tells me that it's a fifteen month commitment...which demands $7500 if you leave early. Not a great barrier to face when that upgrade doesn't show up in eight months and you're making $16/hr.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Meatball (Post 534802)

...

Having said that. Turbine time, even SIC is worth a lot more than PIC piston time. But Great Lakes is a crappy outfit with miserable pilots working for an unstable company in an unstable industry....

Good luck.

I wouldn't say Lakes is unstable. It's probably one of the most stable regionals out there, at this point. Continued expansion with more airplanes, more pilots, and government contracts to ensure an income. Furloughing isn't on the horizon, from what I can tell. Your average Great Lakes pilot isn't what I would call "miserable", either. Most are some of the nicest and coolest people you will ever meet. Where are these "miserable" Lakers you are meeting? Everyone has their "miserable" moments, but most are happy to be at Lakes. It's a good short term investment for a long-term career at a major; unlike most other regionals, which I would say would be a bad long-term investment, for a short-term career at a major. This industry's hiring situation has been at this point many, many times before. If you look at the way things have changed with the slightest breeze before, you would see that no one can call this a long-term hiring freeze with any certainty. Things will change. When? I don't know, you don't know, no one knows. Almost everyone who made an airline hiring forecast 1.5 years ago turned out to be 100% wrong...