Pinnacle Airlines Corp. Announces Expansion of Partnership With Continental Airlines
01-16-2009, 10:02 AM
#41
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2006
Position: Student Pilot
Posts: 849
Originally Posted by The Juice
Lets all relax on the merger idea. Once and If PNCL Corp announces a pilot list meger then we can let our pilots will cooler heads sit in a room and work on it. Hotheads on a forum board do nothing to benefit 9E and 9L unity.
01-16-2009, 10:06 AM
#42
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2006
Position: Student Pilot
Posts: 849
Originally Posted by Airsupport
uhhmmm what you quoted is not what i said. i don't know how you did it but that isn't my post that you are getting so offended by. it was written by your coworker cloudkicker on page 1
. The quote that I posted from him is not what I was offended by. I quoted him because I agreed with what he said.
01-16-2009, 02:13 PM
#43
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: 73N
Posts: 859
I'm for DOH and 5-10 year fences. Why should someone with 6 months at 9L get put in from of me? Stay on your old planes, we will stay on our and DOH will be fair. After the fences are down seniority will be much less of an issue and people will have earned their senority instead of stole it.
01-16-2009, 09:12 PM
#44
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2008
Position: CRJ FO
Posts: 405
Originally Posted by ebl14
I'm for DOH and 5-10 year fences. Why should someone with 6 months at 9L get put in from of me? Stay on your old planes, we will stay on our and DOH will be fair. After the fences are down seniority will be much less of an issue and people will have earned their senority instead of stole it.
01-16-2009, 10:15 PM
#46
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2008
Position: MSP CA
Posts: 353
All this talk of merging the "lists" is just that....TALK
Its not going to happen anytime soon, if ever!!!
However, IF it ever does happen, I can assure everyone at (9L) that it will be as fair as any merger can be. But, like any merger theres always about 40% of the pilots that think their getting screwed.
Here at (9E) we have some pretty serious crap being flung at us right now from management. They want to downgrade 30 captains and replace them with non-seniority list training pilots. Then out source our training events at FS. So TALK of a merger is NIL.
Its not going to happen anytime soon, if ever!!!
However, IF it ever does happen, I can assure everyone at (9L) that it will be as fair as any merger can be. But, like any merger theres always about 40% of the pilots that think their getting screwed.
Here at (9E) we have some pretty serious crap being flung at us right now from management. They want to downgrade 30 captains and replace them with non-seniority list training pilots. Then out source our training events at FS. So TALK of a merger is NIL.
01-16-2009, 11:06 PM
#47
Line Holder
Joined APC: Jan 2009
Position: M88B
Posts: 41
Originally Posted by kalyx522
I do support a merging of our lists (wouldn't have volunteered on the OC if I didn't agree with this), but not if the attitude of the Pinnacle pilot group is in line with what's being said by some of the Pinnacle guys on here.
It hasn't even been a month since we voted in ALPA, and these guys are already talking DOH?! In retrospect I guess I shouldn't have expected them to want anything else (besides a staple if they could do it), but it's still surprising and telling.
Many Colgan pilots didn't want to vote because they were fearful of being screwed by Pinnacle pilots if we merged. I tried my best trying to convince some of those coworkers that Pinnacle guys were willing to work with us. To think I defended that, I kinda feel like an idiot now.
Whatever happened to "fair and equitable" and "working together" as touted repeatedly by the Pinnacle MEC during our campaign? How about the Colgan pilots who finally changed their minds because some Pinnacle guys worked tirelessly (Scott Erickson for example) to reassure them that Pinnacle wasn't out to get us? Am I wrong to expect some integrity on the part of fellow pilots and think that they would honor their promises?
I remember reading ALPA literature (had to do my homework before I started trying to convince anyone why we should vote) which specifically stated that alpa DOESN'T support DOH. The reasons should be obvious to anyone.
I understand everyone has to watch out for themselves, but let's be intelligent here. What's more fair for EVERYONE involved - Pinnacle guys getting their windfall and Colgan guys getting screwed, or doing something like what DAL/NWA did which only affected EVERYONE A LITTLE. A merger is never going to be perfect, and right now I can't think of anything more fair (for everyone involved again, not just one group) than relative seniority. I could see how Pinnacle guys would be opposed to relative seniority because it does benefit the Colgan group a little more, but it still has way less drastic effects on both groups than DOH.
I hope that the opinions of a few nameless Pinnacle pilots on here don't convince any Colgan pilots of a disposition that may or may not be shared by any of the other 1300+ Pinnacle pilots. During my nine years at PCL and the two organizing drives I have helped our Colgan brothers and sisters with I have met literally thousands of great pilots and great people. Almost none of the negative opinions I have read on this topic have been shared by any of the affected pilots in real life.
That being said, the topic of merger is always difficult to approach because of the worry of a unfavorable seniority list placement and to be fair it is a realistic worry. As I have said so many times with Colgan and Pinnacle pilots alike, in the event of a merger I will personally strive to see as fair of a result as possible. What is fair? Thats the hard part.
There are many philosophies on how to put a merged list together and if one of them was better than all the others this wouldn't be a difficult process. I've studied mergers over the past 60 years at considerable length and one thing you will almost always find is that a combination of merger philosophies usually yields the best results. In the case of COL and PCL I've read on here so far that there is a perception that straight DOH probably favors the PCL pilots while a relative seniority integration probably favors the COL pilots. That may, or may not, be true but its probably not far from the truth. Whats the right answer? I don't claim to know for certain but its probably not something as simple as either of the mentioned methods on there own.
Fortunately its not up to any one of the interested individuals to decide but I'm confident that through close work with the new COL MEC we will come to a peaceful and mutually beneficial solution if a merger is called. As with any merger everyone won't be completely happy with the end result but hopefully, everyone can call it fair.
Scott Erickson
PCL MEC Chairman
I wonder if any of the Pinnacle guys wanting DOH with us ever thought that it was unreasonable that US Air guys would only consider DOH during their merger.
01-16-2009, 11:40 PM
#48
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2007
Position: Satan's Camaro
Posts: 397
Originally Posted by SErickson
I'm usually just a lurker here taking in fellow pilots opinions but seeing is that this issue is so near to me I think its important to talk about it.
I hope that the opinions of a few nameless Pinnacle pilots on here don't convince any Colgan pilots of a disposition that may or may not be shared by any of the other 1300+ Pinnacle pilots. During my nine years at PCL and the two organizing drives I have helped our Colgan brothers and sisters with I have met literally thousands of great pilots and great people. Almost none of the negative opinions I have read on this topic have been shared by any of the affected pilots in real life.
That being said, the topic of merger is always difficult to approach because of the worry of a unfavorable seniority list placement and to be fair it is a realistic worry. As I have said so many times with Colgan and Pinnacle pilots alike, in the event of a merger I will personally strive to see as fair of a result as possible. What is fair? Thats the hard part.
There are many philosophies on how to put a merged list together and if one of them was better than all the others this wouldn't be a difficult process. I've studied mergers over the past 60 years at considerable length and one thing you will almost always find is that a combination of merger philosophies usually yields the best results. In the case of COL and PCL I've read on here so far that there is a perception that straight DOH probably favors the PCL pilots while a relative seniority integration probably favors the COL pilots. That may, or may not, be true but its probably not far from the truth. Whats the right answer? I don't claim to know for certain but its probably not something as simple as either of the mentioned methods on there own.
Fortunately its not up to any one of the interested individuals to decide but I'm confident that through close work with the new COL MEC we will come to a peaceful and mutually beneficial solution if a merger is called. As with any merger everyone won't be completely happy with the end result but hopefully, everyone can call it fair.
Scott Erickson
PCL MEC Chairman
The USAir/AmWest merger is about the best example you'll find of how neither DOH or relative seniority are feasible means of merging a list on their own. Fortunately, our lists are not so radically different.
I hope that the opinions of a few nameless Pinnacle pilots on here don't convince any Colgan pilots of a disposition that may or may not be shared by any of the other 1300+ Pinnacle pilots. During my nine years at PCL and the two organizing drives I have helped our Colgan brothers and sisters with I have met literally thousands of great pilots and great people. Almost none of the negative opinions I have read on this topic have been shared by any of the affected pilots in real life.
That being said, the topic of merger is always difficult to approach because of the worry of a unfavorable seniority list placement and to be fair it is a realistic worry. As I have said so many times with Colgan and Pinnacle pilots alike, in the event of a merger I will personally strive to see as fair of a result as possible. What is fair? Thats the hard part.
There are many philosophies on how to put a merged list together and if one of them was better than all the others this wouldn't be a difficult process. I've studied mergers over the past 60 years at considerable length and one thing you will almost always find is that a combination of merger philosophies usually yields the best results. In the case of COL and PCL I've read on here so far that there is a perception that straight DOH probably favors the PCL pilots while a relative seniority integration probably favors the COL pilots. That may, or may not, be true but its probably not far from the truth. Whats the right answer? I don't claim to know for certain but its probably not something as simple as either of the mentioned methods on there own.
Fortunately its not up to any one of the interested individuals to decide but I'm confident that through close work with the new COL MEC we will come to a peaceful and mutually beneficial solution if a merger is called. As with any merger everyone won't be completely happy with the end result but hopefully, everyone can call it fair.
Scott Erickson
PCL MEC Chairman
The USAir/AmWest merger is about the best example you'll find of how neither DOH or relative seniority are feasible means of merging a list on their own. Fortunately, our lists are not so radically different.
Everybody needs to learn to breath and step back for a second and realize that these are anonymous forums, and that "compromise" and "being reasonable" are seldom modus operandi here.
01-17-2009, 12:45 AM
#49
Day puke
Joined APC: Feb 2006
Position: Out.
Posts: 3,865
Originally Posted by SErickson
I'm usually just a lurker here taking in fellow pilots opinions but seeing is that this issue is so near to me I think its important to talk about it.
I hope that the opinions of a few nameless Pinnacle pilots on here don't convince any Colgan pilots of a disposition that may or may not be shared by any of the other 1300+ Pinnacle pilots. During my nine years at PCL and the two organizing drives I have helped our Colgan brothers and sisters with I have met literally thousands of great pilots and great people. Almost none of the negative opinions I have read on this topic have been shared by any of the affected pilots in real life.
That being said, the topic of merger is always difficult to approach because of the worry of a unfavorable seniority list placement and to be fair it is a realistic worry. As I have said so many times with Colgan and Pinnacle pilots alike, in the event of a merger I will personally strive to see as fair of a result as possible. What is fair? Thats the hard part.
There are many philosophies on how to put a merged list together and if one of them was better than all the others this wouldn't be a difficult process. I've studied mergers over the past 60 years at considerable length and one thing you will almost always find is that a combination of merger philosophies usually yields the best results. In the case of COL and PCL I've read on here so far that there is a perception that straight DOH probably favors the PCL pilots while a relative seniority integration probably favors the COL pilots. That may, or may not, be true but its probably not far from the truth. Whats the right answer? I don't claim to know for certain but its probably not something as simple as either of the mentioned methods on there own.
Fortunately its not up to any one of the interested individuals to decide but I'm confident that through close work with the new COL MEC we will come to a peaceful and mutually beneficial solution if a merger is called. As with any merger everyone won't be completely happy with the end result but hopefully, everyone can call it fair.
Scott Erickson
PCL MEC Chairman
The USAir/AmWest merger is about the best example you'll find of how neither DOH or relative seniority are feasible means of merging a list on their own. Fortunately, our lists are not so radically different.
I hope that the opinions of a few nameless Pinnacle pilots on here don't convince any Colgan pilots of a disposition that may or may not be shared by any of the other 1300+ Pinnacle pilots. During my nine years at PCL and the two organizing drives I have helped our Colgan brothers and sisters with I have met literally thousands of great pilots and great people. Almost none of the negative opinions I have read on this topic have been shared by any of the affected pilots in real life.
That being said, the topic of merger is always difficult to approach because of the worry of a unfavorable seniority list placement and to be fair it is a realistic worry. As I have said so many times with Colgan and Pinnacle pilots alike, in the event of a merger I will personally strive to see as fair of a result as possible. What is fair? Thats the hard part.
There are many philosophies on how to put a merged list together and if one of them was better than all the others this wouldn't be a difficult process. I've studied mergers over the past 60 years at considerable length and one thing you will almost always find is that a combination of merger philosophies usually yields the best results. In the case of COL and PCL I've read on here so far that there is a perception that straight DOH probably favors the PCL pilots while a relative seniority integration probably favors the COL pilots. That may, or may not, be true but its probably not far from the truth. Whats the right answer? I don't claim to know for certain but its probably not something as simple as either of the mentioned methods on there own.
Fortunately its not up to any one of the interested individuals to decide but I'm confident that through close work with the new COL MEC we will come to a peaceful and mutually beneficial solution if a merger is called. As with any merger everyone won't be completely happy with the end result but hopefully, everyone can call it fair.
Scott Erickson
PCL MEC Chairman
The USAir/AmWest merger is about the best example you'll find of how neither DOH or relative seniority are feasible means of merging a list on their own. Fortunately, our lists are not so radically different.
A civil judge I once knew said he had made a fair judgment if neither side was happy with the decision.
As a Colgan FO about 100 from upgrade, I say a DOH merge would not be fair. However, since PNCL and Colgan's most junior captains (street captains not included) are only about 6-8 months apart, even that worst case would IMHO not be all doom and gloom. Still I cannot support it. I also do not support a relative merge. I believe it too would be unfair.
I hope that our two pilot groups could come up with a blending of relative and DOH that would be reasonable and fair as possible with a fence (at least two years) for all current flying. Two years will, if this industry recovers at all, be sufficient time for nearly all current employees to be on equal ground.
Of course, this is all mute until the big wigs decide to merge us
Working toward the common goal,
John Hickman, FO IAH
01-17-2009, 01:00 AM
#50
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2006
Position: Student Pilot
Posts: 849
Originally Posted by SErickson
I'm usually just a lurker here taking in fellow pilots opinions but seeing is that this issue is so near to me I think its important to talk about it.
I hope that the opinions of a few nameless Pinnacle pilots on here don't convince any Colgan pilots of a disposition that may or may not be shared by any of the other 1300+ Pinnacle pilots. During my nine years at PCL and the two organizing drives I have helped our Colgan brothers and sisters with I have met literally thousands of great pilots and great people. Almost none of the negative opinions I have read on this topic have been shared by any of the affected pilots in real life.
That being said, the topic of merger is always difficult to approach because of the worry of a unfavorable seniority list placement and to be fair it is a realistic worry. As I have said so many times with Colgan and Pinnacle pilots alike, in the event of a merger I will personally strive to see as fair of a result as possible. What is fair? Thats the hard part.
There are many philosophies on how to put a merged list together and if one of them was better than all the others this wouldn't be a difficult process. I've studied mergers over the past 60 years at considerable length and one thing you will almost always find is that a combination of merger philosophies usually yields the best results. In the case of COL and PCL I've read on here so far that there is a perception that straight DOH probably favors the PCL pilots while a relative seniority integration probably favors the COL pilots. That may, or may not, be true but its probably not far from the truth. Whats the right answer? I don't claim to know for certain but its probably not something as simple as either of the mentioned methods on there own.
Fortunately its not up to any one of the interested individuals to decide but I'm confident that through close work with the new COL MEC we will come to a peaceful and mutually beneficial solution if a merger is called. As with any merger everyone won't be completely happy with the end result but hopefully, everyone can call it fair.
Scott Erickson
PCL MEC Chairman
The USAir/AmWest merger is about the best example you'll find of how neither DOH or relative seniority are feasible means of merging a list on their own. Fortunately, our lists are not so radically different.
I hope that the opinions of a few nameless Pinnacle pilots on here don't convince any Colgan pilots of a disposition that may or may not be shared by any of the other 1300+ Pinnacle pilots. During my nine years at PCL and the two organizing drives I have helped our Colgan brothers and sisters with I have met literally thousands of great pilots and great people. Almost none of the negative opinions I have read on this topic have been shared by any of the affected pilots in real life.
That being said, the topic of merger is always difficult to approach because of the worry of a unfavorable seniority list placement and to be fair it is a realistic worry. As I have said so many times with Colgan and Pinnacle pilots alike, in the event of a merger I will personally strive to see as fair of a result as possible. What is fair? Thats the hard part.
There are many philosophies on how to put a merged list together and if one of them was better than all the others this wouldn't be a difficult process. I've studied mergers over the past 60 years at considerable length and one thing you will almost always find is that a combination of merger philosophies usually yields the best results. In the case of COL and PCL I've read on here so far that there is a perception that straight DOH probably favors the PCL pilots while a relative seniority integration probably favors the COL pilots. That may, or may not, be true but its probably not far from the truth. Whats the right answer? I don't claim to know for certain but its probably not something as simple as either of the mentioned methods on there own.
Fortunately its not up to any one of the interested individuals to decide but I'm confident that through close work with the new COL MEC we will come to a peaceful and mutually beneficial solution if a merger is called. As with any merger everyone won't be completely happy with the end result but hopefully, everyone can call it fair.
Scott Erickson
PCL MEC Chairman
The USAir/AmWest merger is about the best example you'll find of how neither DOH or relative seniority are feasible means of merging a list on their own. Fortunately, our lists are not so radically different.
Then again I realized it's an anonymous forum and whatever anyone says here may or may not mean anything (including myself
)
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