Is loving “it” enough? If not, what else is there?
01-26-2009, 08:35 AM
#11
Gets Weekend Reserve
Joined APC: Jul 2007
Posts: 3,611
I'm living what you're saying Cosmo.
I flew for Aloha. Had a nice, cush job, was about to upgrade when it all came down crashing. Time to start over...
Got hired by Mesaba only to have the class cancelled because of Delta shuffling aircraft. This is not to mention that the first year pay would be literally equivalent TO A DOLLAR to my unemployment check.
Fortunately, I just got hired by an international corporate operator to crew a brand new large cabin jet, and the pay will be significantly more appropriate for my hours and experience.
Look... seniority concept is wrong and evil, especially when it comes to pay. I spoke with many of Aloha senior pilots well before Aloha collapse, and while some said... yeah NATIONAL SENIORITY LIST (which is a pipe dream), they were perfectly fine with first year pay being dismal. When I'd ask them if they thought their skill was worth $25/hour should Aloha go out of business? I got blank stares, shrugs and "well, that's the way it is."
I guess I don't jive with that mentality... and that's why I think business aviation is the way to go - if the worst happens and your department shuts down and you were a Global Express or G-550 captain making a nice 6 figure salary, you don't have to go back to right seat in a King Air 200 flying for 22k a year if you want to remain in aviation simply because seniority system mandates it. You can pursue jobs flying Globals and Gulfstreams, or others... and your pay will be what you negotiate, but I can guarantee you it'll be way more appropriate than a regional airline pilot pay.
There are ways to make a good living in aviation. I just don't think 121 is it anymore.
I flew for Aloha. Had a nice, cush job, was about to upgrade when it all came down crashing. Time to start over...
Got hired by Mesaba only to have the class cancelled because of Delta shuffling aircraft. This is not to mention that the first year pay would be literally equivalent TO A DOLLAR to my unemployment check.
Fortunately, I just got hired by an international corporate operator to crew a brand new large cabin jet, and the pay will be significantly more appropriate for my hours and experience.
Look... seniority concept is wrong and evil, especially when it comes to pay. I spoke with many of Aloha senior pilots well before Aloha collapse, and while some said... yeah NATIONAL SENIORITY LIST (which is a pipe dream), they were perfectly fine with first year pay being dismal. When I'd ask them if they thought their skill was worth $25/hour should Aloha go out of business? I got blank stares, shrugs and "well, that's the way it is."
I guess I don't jive with that mentality... and that's why I think business aviation is the way to go - if the worst happens and your department shuts down and you were a Global Express or G-550 captain making a nice 6 figure salary, you don't have to go back to right seat in a King Air 200 flying for 22k a year if you want to remain in aviation simply because seniority system mandates it. You can pursue jobs flying Globals and Gulfstreams, or others... and your pay will be what you negotiate, but I can guarantee you it'll be way more appropriate than a regional airline pilot pay.
There are ways to make a good living in aviation. I just don't think 121 is it anymore.
01-26-2009, 08:42 AM
#13
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Position: 9K CA
Posts: 124
Originally Posted by RJSAviator76
There are ways to make a good living in aviation. I just don't think 121 is it anymore.
01-26-2009, 08:44 AM
#14
Line Holder
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: Lear 45 Capt
Posts: 38
I must love "it". Last year I was furloughed twice in 6 months, and am now working as a ramper part time. I still am dying to get back to the grind of flying the line again. I'd compare the feeling to that of a battered housewife that keeps going back to the man that beats her. It may be a very dysfunctional relationship, but I'll still go back.
01-26-2009, 08:47 AM
#15
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Position: HS125
Posts: 194
Originally Posted by CosmoKramer
Is loving “it” enough? If not, what else is there?
Thats the question that has haunted me for some time. Is loving “it” enough? It has, over time, become more and more clear that this industry isn't in a recession bound to bounce back with time like the rest of the economy. Its not cyclical, its in a down ward spiral, It has changed forever.
It used to be that you could make a good living by most standards and have a reasonable to good quality of life with the airlines as a pilot or even a flight attendant.
You would never be “rich” but would live a decent life. But as we see it and have seen it for the past 10 years, those days are long gone. Now its shady seedy motels and first year pay at a regional for the 3rd time for most of us.
For someone who is been beating this horse for 5 to 7 years, its becoming harder and harder to persuade myself to continue down this path for the later and better years to come. Seems to me they wont be better if there will be there at all in the absence of a furlough or what might go along the lines of ATA, Aloha, or even Midwest.
Ya its true that we love the job. But I think the issue of “loving” what you do has and should always take backseat to security and quality of life outside of work first. What good is it that I “love” what I do but I cant be home for my kids and wife? or cant be there for their graduation or birthdays? And worst of all can’t justify my absence, if at all possible, with at least some financial security. I might as well be home and broke...
There used to be a pension, no more. There used to be QAL at least past the “paying your dues” years. The “paying your dues” are now every year even for the double digit seniority numbered guys. The quality of life they have is better then mine but I sure would expect more after so many years of service.
The pay... even if one stayed long enough to retire from the industry today, chances are the average mean income of their career ( total of income throughout the years of service divided by years of service) will come to a number that most likely is shocking and at best not very impressive. This is to leave you with nothing more then a few stories in the autumn of your years.
I find it hard to convince myself to go on doing it... and I dont buy the argument of “what else can I do?!”
First you have to decide you want out and then worry about what you will do next. If you need out, if you want out, there will be an out and most likely one that will surprise you.
What keeps you guys going, and I mean truly hopeful, not looking at false hope or through rose colored glasses?
Is loving “it” enough? If not, what else is there?
Keep in mind when you answer that, in this business:
Your experience means NOTHING
Your dedication means NOTHING
Even if your “Sully” the Hudson Savior you are NOTHING but a number that restarts every time the company can convince a bankruptcy judge they dont have enough money to repaint the planes.
Share you thoughts
Dont start a fight in the thread, at least not in the first few pages.
Thanks.
Thats the question that has haunted me for some time. Is loving “it” enough? It has, over time, become more and more clear that this industry isn't in a recession bound to bounce back with time like the rest of the economy. Its not cyclical, its in a down ward spiral, It has changed forever.
It used to be that you could make a good living by most standards and have a reasonable to good quality of life with the airlines as a pilot or even a flight attendant.
You would never be “rich” but would live a decent life. But as we see it and have seen it for the past 10 years, those days are long gone. Now its shady seedy motels and first year pay at a regional for the 3rd time for most of us.
For someone who is been beating this horse for 5 to 7 years, its becoming harder and harder to persuade myself to continue down this path for the later and better years to come. Seems to me they wont be better if there will be there at all in the absence of a furlough or what might go along the lines of ATA, Aloha, or even Midwest.
Ya its true that we love the job. But I think the issue of “loving” what you do has and should always take backseat to security and quality of life outside of work first. What good is it that I “love” what I do but I cant be home for my kids and wife? or cant be there for their graduation or birthdays? And worst of all can’t justify my absence, if at all possible, with at least some financial security. I might as well be home and broke...
There used to be a pension, no more. There used to be QAL at least past the “paying your dues” years. The “paying your dues” are now every year even for the double digit seniority numbered guys. The quality of life they have is better then mine but I sure would expect more after so many years of service.
The pay... even if one stayed long enough to retire from the industry today, chances are the average mean income of their career ( total of income throughout the years of service divided by years of service) will come to a number that most likely is shocking and at best not very impressive. This is to leave you with nothing more then a few stories in the autumn of your years.
I find it hard to convince myself to go on doing it... and I dont buy the argument of “what else can I do?!”
First you have to decide you want out and then worry about what you will do next. If you need out, if you want out, there will be an out and most likely one that will surprise you.
What keeps you guys going, and I mean truly hopeful, not looking at false hope or through rose colored glasses?
Is loving “it” enough? If not, what else is there?
Keep in mind when you answer that, in this business:
Your experience means NOTHING
Your dedication means NOTHING
Even if your “Sully” the Hudson Savior you are NOTHING but a number that restarts every time the company can convince a bankruptcy judge they dont have enough money to repaint the planes.
Share you thoughts
Dont start a fight in the thread, at least not in the first few pages.
Thanks.
01-26-2009, 08:49 AM
#16
CA
Joined APC: Oct 2005
Position: I am the Captain now...
Posts: 1,006
Originally Posted by RJSAviator76
There are ways to make a good living in aviation. I just don't think 121 is it anymore.
Just a nostalgic moment, but I miss taking off with full tanks in a 172 and enjoying a nice flight up the California coast. No MELs, no PMSing FAs, no lines of convective activity, no mentally retarded TSA agents... ahh, the good 'ole days!
At least the flight bennies are nice though.
01-26-2009, 10:22 AM
#18
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2008
Posts: 1,530
Originally Posted by Pontius Pilot
Do you love the job, the entire package, or just the flying part?
For me, I love the flying...but I dislike everything before push back and after arrival. I can do without all the politics, problems, low pay, seedy hotels, starting over every time you change jobs, etc.
I don't think loving it is enough, but I'm not truly convinced you love it. You see it for what it is.
It has changed over the years, but there are some fundamentals. I read Ernest K. Gann's "Fate is the Hunter" - he started flying for American in the 1930's...and the way he described it from ground school to IOE to flying the line all sound like he did it yesterday!
The one thing that frightens me about the job outlook for this industry is the difficulty of getting on with the majors. When is the last time they hired in any big number? The regionals are looking like a dead end job.
For me, I love the flying...but I dislike everything before push back and after arrival. I can do without all the politics, problems, low pay, seedy hotels, starting over every time you change jobs, etc.
I don't think loving it is enough, but I'm not truly convinced you love it. You see it for what it is.
It has changed over the years, but there are some fundamentals. I read Ernest K. Gann's "Fate is the Hunter" - he started flying for American in the 1930's...and the way he described it from ground school to IOE to flying the line all sound like he did it yesterday!
The one thing that frightens me about the job outlook for this industry is the difficulty of getting on with the majors. When is the last time they hired in any big number? The regionals are looking like a dead end job.
The notion that someone is not true to their profession because they seek financial rewards is not true. You can't pay the bills by looking outside your window as you break out of a cloud deck. It's still very cool.... but that's not going to get anything done. Even though you're flying a jet, you're still making less than some low level government workers and janitors. And once you make it to CA, you can have a little more just to call you're self a middle class "white" collar worker, who hasn't been home for most of the month. I tell people to seriously reconsider flying pro because it is not what it used to be and most likely never will be.
01-26-2009, 10:59 AM
#19
The NeverEnding Story
Joined APC: Sep 2005
Posts: 7,512
Its important for one to enjoy their job...but simply enjoying one's job doesn't pay the mortgage.
For a single 21 year old college graduate airline flying is GREAT - living the high life one Clarion at a time, then jetting around to various parts of the world on your days off, seeing things very few have seen. For them, the experience is part of their compensation. On the other hand, for somebody with "real-world" financial responsibilities like a family or debt, the ability to travel NRSA falls a distant last to things like paying the natural gas bill or making the house payment.
Airline pilots have historically enjoyed respectable pay as compensation for their skills, knowledge, and time spent away from home. Today, that time spent away from spouses, children, friends, etc. isn't respected - "its part of the job"...and in reality, skills and knowledge aren't really respected either.3
When is "loving it" not enough in this business? When you can't meet your responsibilities, that's when.
For a single 21 year old college graduate airline flying is GREAT - living the high life one Clarion at a time, then jetting around to various parts of the world on your days off, seeing things very few have seen. For them, the experience is part of their compensation. On the other hand, for somebody with "real-world" financial responsibilities like a family or debt, the ability to travel NRSA falls a distant last to things like paying the natural gas bill or making the house payment.
Airline pilots have historically enjoyed respectable pay as compensation for their skills, knowledge, and time spent away from home. Today, that time spent away from spouses, children, friends, etc. isn't respected - "its part of the job"...and in reality, skills and knowledge aren't really respected either.3
When is "loving it" not enough in this business? When you can't meet your responsibilities, that's when.
01-26-2009, 11:02 AM
#20
Line Holder
Joined APC: Dec 2008
Position: CRJ-200 Furlough
Posts: 96
Originally Posted by BoilerUP
Its important for one to enjoy their job...but simply enjoying one's job doesn't pay the mortgage.
For a single 21 year old college graduate airline flying is GREAT - living the high life one Clarion at a time, then jetting around to various parts of the world on your days off, seeing things very few have seen. For them, the experience is part of their compensation. On the other hand, for somebody with "real-world" financial responsibilities like a family or debt, the ability to travel NRSA falls a distant last to things like paying the natural gas bill or making the house payment.
Airline pilots have historically enjoyed respectable pay as compensation for their skills, knowledge, and time spent away from home. Today, that time spent away from spouses, children, friends, etc. isn't respected - "its part of the job"...and in reality, skills and knowledge aren't really respected either.3
When is "loving it" not enough in this business? When you can't meet your responsibilities, that's when.
For a single 21 year old college graduate airline flying is GREAT - living the high life one Clarion at a time, then jetting around to various parts of the world on your days off, seeing things very few have seen. For them, the experience is part of their compensation. On the other hand, for somebody with "real-world" financial responsibilities like a family or debt, the ability to travel NRSA falls a distant last to things like paying the natural gas bill or making the house payment.
Airline pilots have historically enjoyed respectable pay as compensation for their skills, knowledge, and time spent away from home. Today, that time spent away from spouses, children, friends, etc. isn't respected - "its part of the job"...and in reality, skills and knowledge aren't really respected either.3
When is "loving it" not enough in this business? When you can't meet your responsibilities, that's when.
