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Rwy Incursion
I know a captain that was landing at JFK on 1/3/2009 and a Freedom ERJ crossed the rwy (allegedly without clearance). The landing aircraft stopped approx. 100 feet short of hitting the Freedom plane (with full rev thrust and both pilots on the brakes). I have been watching the ntsb website and it is still not listed. Any idea why? Anyone else have any info on the incident?
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hard to see how it could have stayed out of the press.... count me as skeptical.
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Originally Posted by HercDriver130
(Post 549998)
hard to see how it could have stayed out of the press.... count me as skeptical.
I suspect this tread will turn into another bash MESA/Freedom free for all and will get locked by the mods... |
Originally Posted by Blkflyer
(Post 549999)
Count me in as skeptical as well the news media would have a field day with something like this..
I suspect this tread will turn into another bash MESA/Freedom free for all and will get locked by the mods... USMCFLYR |
Doesn't matter how many pilots push on the brakes on the ERJ, only thing that matters is who pushes harder, all Electronic mumbo jumbo.
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I still think this is a flamebait thread..... NO way this stays out of the media. the passengers on either aircraft would have been spilling their guts...
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Originally Posted by Lowlevel
(Post 549879)
I know a captain that was landing at JFK on 1/3/2009 and a Freedom ERJ crossed the rwy (allegedly without clearance). The landing aircraft stopped approx. 100 feet short of hitting the Freedom plane (with full rev thrust and both pilots on the brakes). I have been watching the ntsb website and it is still not listed. Any idea why? Anyone else have any info on the incident?
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Let me guess you or your bud works for comair.:rolleyes:
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I heard about this although can't confirm it with a solid source like NTSB etc. From what I understand, the Freedom plane was taxiing from remote, empty. From the angle it occurred, passengers would be unable see anything.
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Originally Posted by flynavyj
(Post 550061)
Doesn't matter how many pilots push on the brakes on the ERJ, only thing that matters is who pushes harder, all Electronic mumbo jumbo.
I saw the captain and FO in CVG the night of the incident. They said they were headed to JFK. I was off to somewhere else. The next day, I was back in CVG and saw them both again. They told the story of the night before and stated that they were both pulled off the trip and sent to CVG to meet with FAA, NTSB, ALPA, and company on Monday morning (incident happened on Saturday night). They both seemed quite upset about the whole thing. The story: Freedom, landing 22L was cleared to land Comair, landing 22R was cleared to land Freedom landed and exited at Juliet Comair was flaring (FO's leg) when captain noticed ERJ taxing on Juliet seemed to be going faster than he should if he planned on holding short 22R As OH touched down (captain stated around mid to end of touchdown zone) the ERJ entered 22R. Both pilots stood hard on brakes and full reverse was used Aircraft stopped one cenerline marking before Juliet, missing rear of ERJ (which continued to roll across 22R). Pilots stated that front of aircraft may have missed Erj if they did not stop, but wing would probably have hit. (full reverse was used until full stop. Note: centerline markings are 120 feet long) After exiting rwy, Comair asked tower if ERJ was cleared to cross and reply was "He isn't talking to me, I did not clear him. All kinds of alarms went off up here when he entered the rwy" I was not there, so I don't know. I do know the CA and FO and they don't seem to be the type to lie about this and seemed really upset when I was speaking to them the next day. I am still trying to find the atc recording. All I have found on that date so far was Freedom Air 6277 not making their turn on climb out from 31L and causing ATC to stop a DAL heavy from climbing into him, but I guess that tape is a forgery too:eek: |
Originally Posted by Lowlevel
(Post 550103)
I never posted a thread for this earlier because I have been waiting for the ntsb website to update (around the holidays it was about 2 weeks behind), but it seems that it is now updated.
I saw the captain and FO in CVG the night of the incident. They said they were headed to JFK. I was off to somewhere else. The next day, I was back in CVG and saw them both again. They told the story of the night before and stated that they were both pulled off the trip and sent to CVG to meet with FAA, NTSB, ALPA, and company on Monday morning (incident happened on Saturday night). They both seemed quite upset about the whole thing. The story: Freedom, landing 22L was cleared to land Comair, landing 22R was cleared to land Freedom landed and exited at Juliet Comair was flaring (FO's leg) when captain noticed ERJ taxing on Juliet seemed to be going faster than he should if he planned on holding short 22R As OH touched down (captain stated around mid to end of touchdown zone) the ERJ entered 22R. Both pilots stood hard on brakes and full reverse was used Aircraft stopped one cenerline marking before Juliet, missing rear of ERJ (which continued to roll across 22R). Pilots stated that front of aircraft may have missed Erj if they did not stop, but wing would probably have hit. (full reverse was used until full stop. Note: centerline markings are 120 feet long) After exiting rwy, Comair asked tower if ERJ was cleared to cross and reply was "He isn't talking to me, I did not clear him. All kinds of alarms went off up here when he entered the rwy" I was not there, so I don't know. I do know the CA and FO and they don't seem to be the type to lie about this and seemed really upset when I was speaking to them the next day. I am still trying to find the atc recording. All I have found on that date so far was Freedom Air 6277 not making their turn on climb out from 31L and causing ATC to stop a DAL heavy from climbing into him, but I guess that tape is a forgery too:eek: |
Originally Posted by Lowlevel
(Post 550103)
I never posted a thread for this earlier because I have been waiting for the ntsb website to update (around the holidays it was about 2 weeks behind), but it seems that it is now updated.
I saw the captain and FO in CVG the night of the incident. They said they were headed to JFK. I was off to somewhere else. The next day, I was back in CVG and saw them both again. They told the story of the night before and stated that they were both pulled off the trip and sent to CVG to meet with FAA, NTSB, ALPA, and company on Monday morning (incident happened on Saturday night). They both seemed quite upset about the whole thing. The story: Freedom, landing 22L was cleared to land Comair, landing 22R was cleared to land Freedom landed and exited at Juliet Comair was flaring (FO's leg) when captain noticed ERJ taxing on Juliet seemed to be going faster than he should if he planned on holding short 22R As OH touched down (captain stated around mid to end of touchdown zone) the ERJ entered 22R. Both pilots stood hard on brakes and full reverse was used Aircraft stopped one cenerline marking before Juliet, missing rear of ERJ (which continued to roll across 22R). Pilots stated that front of aircraft may have missed Erj if they did not stop, but wing would probably have hit. (full reverse was used until full stop. Note: centerline markings are 120 feet long) After exiting rwy, Comair asked tower if ERJ was cleared to cross and reply was "He isn't talking to me, I did not clear him. All kinds of alarms went off up here when he entered the rwy" I was not there, so I don't know. I do know the CA and FO and they don't seem to be the type to lie about this and seemed really upset when I was speaking to them the next day. I am still trying to find the atc recording. All I have found on that date so far was Freedom Air 6277 not making their turn on climb out from 31L and causing ATC to stop a DAL heavy from climbing into him, but I guess that tape is a forgery too:eek: are you asking for for info so you can be a better pilot or is there something else. |
Originally Posted by Blkflyer
(Post 550114)
are you asking for for info so you can be a better pilot or is there something else.
Nevermind, Comair doesn't have ASAP right now... :mad: |
Originally Posted by Lowlevel
(Post 550103)
After exiting rwy, Comair asked tower if ERJ was cleared to cross and reply was "He isn't talking to me, I did not clear him. All kinds of alarms went off up here when he entered the rwy"
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Originally Posted by Boomer
(Post 550123)
I sure am glad all those alarms went off and saved the day!
So MR Super Perfect Pilot remember Comair have had their own issues. |
Originally Posted by Blkflyer
(Post 550114)
are you asking for for info so you can be a better pilot or is there something else.
I was asking because I (used to) work at JFK and I was wondering if it was a crew issue or was ATC at fault. I know they get really busy up there in the tower, but that is not a place you want to make a mistake, because if you do it can cost lives. Regarding the Freedom missing the turn: He blamed an FMS failure on takeoff as the reason the plane did not make the turn. If this is so, I now know why Comair does not allow the FMS to be used for departures out of JFK (we have to do it in green data, using the vor's). |
Comair dont allow the FMS for Departures cause they are too Cheap to equip all the aircraft with GPS thus the Slant KILO on a ton of their aircraft we all know that if you get a takeoff at KK when you press the to/to the FMS will update and the aircraft will think its at the end of the Runway...ok I digress as far as Tower Being Busy JFK ATC are some of the BEST controllers anywhere on this planet.. Remember the Blue Grass Airport was not Busy at all and we all Lost some Great People that day for what ever reason, everytime I read the Transcript for 191 it sends Chills down my spine cause it could have been anyone of us speaking of Mistakes I dont know how many times someone have saved my behind or I saved theirs the point is we dont know what happen if anything at JFK and when we do it should not matter who the Guilty Parties are what should matter is that we learn from it..
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Originally Posted by Blkflyer
(Post 550142)
Comair dont allow the FMS for Departures cause they are too Cheap to equip all the aircraft with GPS thus the Slant KILO on a ton of their aircraft we all know that if you get a takeoff at KK when you press the to/to the FMS will update and the aircraft will think its at the end of the Runway...ok I digress as far as Tower Being Busy JFK ATC are some of the BEST controllers anywhere on this planet.. Remember the Blue Grass Airport was not Busy at all and we all Lost some Great People that day for what ever reason, everytime I read the Transcript for 191 it sends Chills down my spine cause it could have been anyone of us speaking of Mistakes I dont know how many times someone have saved my behind or I saved theirs the point is we dont know what happen if anything at JFK and when we do it should not matter who the Guilty Parties are what should matter is that we learn from it..
I know that JFK is busy and the controllers are the best, but EVERYONE makes mistakes, especially under a heavy work load such as the international push (which is the time this occurred). If you have been in JFK a lot, you have surely heard a controller make a mistake. Especially the ground controllers that have to deal with Olympic, Freedom, Saudi, Iberia, TAM, and other non-English speaking crews every day. The controllers earn their paychecks there every second that they work. |
Originally Posted by Lowlevel
(Post 550151)
Yes, and by reading the NTSB reports or hearing the actual tape, a pilot can learn from other peoples mistakes. I was asking if anyone heard of anything on this incident. If anyone knew a place that one could find out what happened, then I would have read it or listened and learned what happened and that was my goal.
I know that JFK is busy and the controllers are the best, but EVERYONE makes mistakes, especially under a heavy work load such as the international push (which is the time this occurred). If you have been in JFK a lot, you have surely heard a controller make a mistake. Especially the ground controllers that have to deal with Olympic, Freedom, Saudi, Iberia, TAM, and other non-English speaking crews every day. The controllers earn their paychecks there every second that they work. In your List of the airlines above you forgot to Mention Comair... they have and Do Make errors too, Maybe I am nit picking the way you pose your question cause it seem like Flame anyway have fun.. Maybe during your Next MV this will be a First Look item.. |
Originally Posted by Blkflyer
(Post 550156)
In your List of the airlines above you forgot to Mention Comair... they have and Do Make errors too, Maybe I am nit picking the way you pose your question cause it seem like Flame anyway have fun.. Maybe during your Next MV this will be a First Look item..
MV? Sorry, no MV out here in furlough land:D |
Originally Posted by Lowlevel
(Post 550159)
My list of airlines above was a list of airlines that are non-English speaking, not a list of airlines that make mistakes.
MV? Sorry, no MV out here in furlough land:D |
When did freedom stop speaking english?
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Originally Posted by flynavyj
(Post 550222)
When did freedom stop speaking english?
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Originally Posted by Lowlevel
(Post 550151)
Especially the ground controllers that have to deal with Olympic, Freedom, Saudi, Iberia, TAM, and other non-English speaking crews every day.
Some of them are kinda rough, huh? I agree on the proper phraseology post, too. Is it really so hard to readback: "Cleared to land, runway 31 Left, Freedom 6123" instead of just "Cleared to land 6123" And it's not just Freedom pulling that one... |
OH my God people stop whining about the guy not saying Comair makes mistakes too. Especially you BLKFlyer!
This list is a list of airlines that have made mistakes for BLKFlyer Alaska American Continental Delta Hawaiian Northwest United US Airways Air Canada Air Canada Jazz Air Labrador Air Transat Bearskin Calm Air Can Jet Cargo Jet Central Mountain Air First Air Kelowna Flightcraft Westjet Airtran Allegiant Aloha American Eagle ASA COMAIR (thats for you BLKFlyer) ExpressJet Frontier Jet Blue Mesa Freedom Midwest Republic Skywest Southwest Spirit Sun Country USA 3000 Virgin America ABX Air Air Net Ameriflight Arrow A Star ATI Atlas Capital Centurion Empire Evergreen FedEx Flight Express Kalitta Kalitta charters Lynden Mountain Air Cargo Murray Air Polar Southern Air Tradewinds UPS Air Wisconsin Cape Air Colgan CommutAir Compass ERA GoJet Great Lakes Gulfstream Horizon Island Air Lynx Air Lynx Aviation Mesaba PenAir Piedmont Pinnacle PSA Skyway Trans States Avantair Citation Shares Flex Jet Flight Options Net Jets Plane Sense XO Jet Key Lime Air Miami Air North American Omni Air Ryan Int. World Xtra Air New Zealand Alitalia Cathay Pacific Emeirates Qantas Air Cargo Charters Kenmore Air Pan Am PSA TWA British Airways KLM Air France Luftansa Korean Air Asiana JAL BMI Cityline |
Originally Posted by Atwoo155
(Post 550366)
OH my God people stop whining about the guy not saying Comair makes mistakes too. Especially you BLKFlyer!
This list is a list of airlines that have made mistakes for BLKFlyer Alaska American Continental Delta Hawaiian Northwest United US Airways Air Canada Air Canada Jazz Air Labrador Air Transat Bearskin Calm Air Can Jet Cargo Jet Central Mountain Air First Air Kelowna Flightcraft Westjet Airtran Allegiant Aloha American Eagle ASA COMAIR (thats for you BLKFlyer) ExpressJet Frontier Jet Blue Mesa Freedom Midwest Republic Skywest Southwest Spirit Sun Country USA 3000 Virgin America ABX Air Air Net Ameriflight Arrow A Star ATI Atlas Capital Centurion Empire Evergreen FedEx Flight Express Kalitta Kalitta charters Lynden Mountain Air Cargo Murray Air Polar Southern Air Tradewinds UPS Air Wisconsin Cape Air Colgan CommutAir Compass ERA GoJet Great Lakes Gulfstream Horizon Island Air Lynx Air Lynx Aviation Mesaba PenAir Piedmont Pinnacle PSA Skyway Trans States Avantair Citation Shares Flex Jet Flight Options Net Jets Plane Sense XO Jet Key Lime Air Miami Air North American Omni Air Ryan Int. World Xtra Air New Zealand Alitalia Cathay Pacific Emeirates Qantas Air Cargo Charters Kenmore Air Pan Am PSA TWA British Airways KLM Air France Luftansa Korean Air Asiana JAL BMI Cityline Yawn......... |
Yawn..eh Grow Up we all know every thread with Mesa eventully gets Close cause it usually turns into personal attacks, I have read this post from the start and I call it like I see it, its FLAME plane and simple...
So ATW flame on... |
Originally Posted by Blkflyer
(Post 550665)
Yawn..eh Grow Up we all know every thread with Mesa eventully gets Close cause it usually turns into personal attacks, I have read this post from the start and I call it like I see it, its FLAME plane and simple...
So ATW flame on... |
Certainly NOT Cyrcadian.. I am just saying the Post was already laying Blame as to what happen who did it and how bad they are.
We are too quick to judge and not wait for the final report, it seems that when it comes to Mesa/Freedom that we tend to convict them before we have all the info, Mind you his post was based on Second hand communication I am not saying it did or didnt happen cause I was not there to see it so I will reserve judgement for a later date. |
Originally Posted by Blkflyer
(Post 550670)
Certainly NOT Cyrcadian.. I am just saying the Post was already laying Blame as to what happen who did it and how bad they are.
We are too quick to judge and not wait for the final report, it seems that when it comes to Mesa/Freedom that we tend to convict them before we have all the info, Mind you his post was based on Second hand communication I am not saying it did or didn't happen cause I was not there to see it so I will reserve judgment for a later date. Read the whole post before you jump off the handle and start posting ridiculous unsubstantiated comments. MAN! I used some big words there! I must be SMRT! |
Q.
Originally Posted by flynavyj
(Post 550222)
When did freedom stop speaking english?
About Nov of last year when we were still losing about 70 pilots a month and everyone was hiring like crazy... there was nobody to hire but non-english speaking pilots. Not saying that they are not good pilots, some are! Just saying, we hired 'em when that's all there was out in the pool... As far as the incursion thing, remember the ASA one last year in ATL where DAL had to rotate early and missed 'em by a wingspan? That one turned out to have some degree of controller fault for not issuing standard terminology to ASA if I recall correctly. As far as standard radio phraseology goes, I have NEVER heard more crap come from a controller than at JFK. Now, this may be because I have never been to LGA, I don't know how they are over there. BUT, JFK controllers have dirty mouths, bad attitudes and I hear 'em with the radio chat back and forth ALL THE DING DONG TIME. Bad JFK, BAD BAD BAD! Those F8 pilots could very well have been issued a clearance to cross 22R on J- I have gotten this clearance a couple of times while still rolling out on 22L! There is a hot spot at that intersection for a reason- and this just reinforces it. LOOK OUT YOUR DANG WINDOW, CLEAR THE RUNWAY BEFORE CROSSING. I hope never to make that mistake, but in the past I have been very cautious about crossing and will continue to be so. What's the rush anyhow? It's NY!!! |
Mod note:
This thread is rapidly drifting off course and into the standard regional bashing back and forth. I'll give it a chance to get back to the OP's original question. If the rest of the posters can't focus on the runway incursion and would rather talk about who does or doesn't make a mistake, then take the dicussion to the PMs. USMCFLYR |
Originally Posted by USMCFLYR
(Post 550712)
Mod note:
This thread is rapidly drifting off course and into the standard regional bashing back and forth. I'll give it a chance to get back to the OP's original question. If the rest of the posters can't focus on the runway incursion and would rather talk about who does or doesn't make a mistake, then take the dicussion to the PMs. USMCFLYR "'Count me in as skeptical as well the news media would have a field day with something like this.. I suspect this tread will turn into another bash MESA/Freedom free for all and will get locked by the mods..'' Just as I predicted the Steelers would go Bird Hunting and bag some cardinals I predict this tread will end in few more post |
Originally Posted by Blkflyer
(Post 550723)
This is what I said in my 3rd post of this thread
"'Count me in as skeptical as well the news media would have a field day with something like this.. I suspect this tread will turn into another bash MESA/Freedom free for all and will get locked by the mods..'' Just as I predicted the Steelers would go Bird Hunting and bag some cardinals I predict this tread will end in few more post Btw - great game. I had no druthers either way, but it was anybody's game to the last! Now...does anybody have anything to say to get this thread back on track? USMCFLYR |
Originally Posted by USMCFLYR
(Post 550741)
You are correct and I gave the thread a chance to prove you wrong and show that an actual worthwhile discussion could come from this subject; and now I have given it one last steer. To that end posters......do you WANT this thread to continue or not?
Btw - great game. I had no druthers either way, but it was anybody's game to the last! Now...does anybody have anything to say to get this thread back on track? USMCFLYR |
Originally Posted by ERJ Driver
(Post 550705)
Q.
Those F8 pilots could very well have been issued a clearance to cross 22R on J- I have gotten this clearance a couple of times while still rolling out on 22L! There is a hot spot at that intersection for a reason- and this just reinforces it. LOOK OUT YOUR DANG WINDOW, CLEAR THE RUNWAY BEFORE CROSSING. I hope never to make that mistake, but in the past I have been very cautious about crossing and will continue to be so. What's the rush anyhow? It's NY!!! |
[quote=ERJ Driver;550705]Q.
As far as standard radio phraseology goes, I have NEVER heard more crap come from a controller than at JFK. Now, this may be because I have never been to LGA, I don't know how they are over there. BUT, JFK controllers have dirty mouths, bad attitudes and I hear 'em with the radio chat back and forth ALL THE DING DONG TIME. Bad JFK, BAD BAD BAD! That's like me saying that "all F8 pilots are morons and that they should be put to sleep!" |
Originally Posted by Droog
(Post 550851)
That's like me saying that "all F8 pilots are morons and that they should be put to sleep!" |
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