Originally Posted by Colnago (Post 555524)

Mesa will NEVER go down. I'm sure no one will admit it but a lot of people will be celebrating the day they go under, if that EVER happens.

Originally Posted by mach946 (Post 555562)

Yes it will truly be a glorious day when this happens. All the pilots will join hands and rejoice, for a new era in aviation history will arrive. No longer will management at the other regional airlines use MESA as the template to oppress and relegate pilots pay and schedules into oblivian. The NEW REGIONAL AIRLINE WORLD ORDER will usher in six figure pay scales, and twenty days off per month, with conjugal visits in the pilot lounges. There will be flow through agreements with the majors, but life will be so good, what pilot in his right mind would exercise this option? On the contrary the pilots at the majors will ask for reverse throughs. They will knash their teeth at how good life will be for us, and they will hate MESA even more for not going under sooner, so that may have partaken in our new glorious careers post MESA.

We will tell our children about the evil MESA empire, how we slaved and toiled under the ruthless Darth JO.


Happy days will soon be upon us :)

Originally Posted by Blkflyer (Post 555571)

LOL I almost spilled my Red Stripe reading this.. lol

Originally Posted by Diver Driver (Post 555574)

Yay beer!!!

Originally Posted by Blkflyer (Post 555561)

Dont be so quick to point fingers.. I have said it about 4 times already Mesa winning the Delta issue is in the intrest of all Regionals if you guys cant see that oh well.

Fly safe yall

Originally Posted by ToiletDuck (Post 555620)

There are more than enough differences for these two instances to not even compete with one another. I'm not protecting any decisions of my management however I can still see the difference between RAH and a management associated with jail time, insider trading, illegally using inside confidential information to run someone out of business, deleting computers for "porn", and screwing their pilot group over with this incredible new contract.

As far as them staying around helps the industry I don't agree. Law of averages. When someone falls off the bottom the industry gets better just as someone that gets a new great contract at the top does.

Originally Posted by Blkflyer (Post 555642)

Keep dreaming if you dont see how this could be bad Ju Ju.. lets see Mesa Loses and Big D et al have case law now on their side.. so lets say they want to cut some Load that RAH is on contract for.. do you really trust your code share wont screw you. as for the performance take a look at the numbers yourself..

RITA | BTS | Transtats

Originally Posted by ToiletDuck (Post 555645)

Why do you assume that if DAL wins it's sets a precedence? Which one would that be? That DAL expects you to follow a contract? DAL said Mesa has to maintain certain numbers. If they can't maintain them then DAL has every right to exercise their agreed upon part of the contract. Point is they both agreed to the contract so let them both hold up their ends to it.

Originally Posted by iPilot (Post 555439)

2/3 of the pilot group got in knowing exactly what a scummy operation it was and undercut the rest of us for a quick upgrade. The other 1/3, the old timers from pre JO days, had plenty of opportunity to get out into another decent job at a major, charter, or just about anything else and probably still have it better off than they have it now. Sure there may be a handfull that truly will get screwed in this deal but the vast majority really have no reason for us to pity them.

Originally Posted by TheDashRocks (Post 555798)

This flawed and oversimplified logic is used by some on this forum to justify rooting for the loss of 1500 pilot jobs. The nerve of those MAG prostitutes trying to move their careers along by earning an ATP and gaining PIC experience. Why can't everyone take advantage of American Eagle's decade-long, right seat seasoning process?

The Union pilots of Mesa Air Group fought a successful battle to convert a non-union alter ego into a union operation. Doing so required a long term strategic vision and the willingness to eat some crappy contract provisions. This move benefited the union pilots as a whole. However in return, the uninformed refer to this pilot group as "bottom-feeders".

In a time of economic downturn, the Mesa MEC successfully won an improved contract, which will be up for negotiation in two years.

Many of us, within and without Mesa, feel deep sympathy for the Aloha folks who have lost their jobs. Many of us feel the same sympathy for the Midwest Airlines pilots on furlough while their routes are flown by E170's crewed by much lower paid pilots. I have not seen the same level of angst and anger directed at RAH pilots as has been directed at MAG pilots.

There are market forces at work much larger than one pilot group. Mesaba flying in SLC? Are they taking Skywest flying? Flying shifts all the time, yet when Mesa shows up somewhere, the shrieking starts.

Originally Posted by laserman2431 (Post 555814)

DashRocks,

I don't have any bad feelings against any Mesa pilot. If Mesa dies, and I hope they do, I will not feel sympathy for the pilots who will lose their jobs any more than I would feel sympathy for the gambler who loses his stake.

When you went to Mesa, you accepted an opportunity and a risk. Many who went before you reaped a great benefit by getting some jet PIC and moving on to great jobs such as Southwest. I say "good for them." Those pilots rolled the dice and won. If Mesa takes a giant dump, and I hope they will, some other gamblers will lose. If you didn't want to deal with risk, what were you doing at Mesa?

I've been there myself. I've gambled and lost. I never asked for any sympathy. I'm a big boy and I made my own decisions. I have no choice but to live with the results.

I hope it will work out well for you and all your brothers and sisters. I always wish the gambler good luck. Best of luck to you!

Originally Posted by TheDashRocks (Post 555798)

There are market forces at work much larger than one pilot group. Mesaba flying in SLC? Are they taking Skywest flying?

Originally Posted by laserman2431 (Post 555814)

DashRocks,

I don't have any bad feelings against any Mesa pilot. If Mesa dies, and I hope they do, I will not feel sympathy for the pilots who will lose their jobs any more than I would feel sympathy for the gambler who loses his stake.

...If you didn't want to deal with risk, what were you doing at Mesa?

I am okay with the risks. I came here to fly the Dash-8. I felt the bases would be a reasonable commute to my home. I knew the pilot group was negotiating a new contract which I hoped would improve things. I hoped for a quick upgrade opportunity. So far, my "gamble" has paid off. If we fold, I will survive. I will feel sympathy for fellow MAG employees who lose their jobs.

I hope it will work out well for you and all your brothers and sisters. I always wish the gambler good luck. Best of luck to you!

Originally Posted by TheDashRocks (Post 555848)

I do not see the harm in extending sympathy to others. If I understand your logic, life is a gamble and no one deserves sympathy.

Thank you for your good wishes.

Originally Posted by TheDashRocks (Post 555798)

This flawed and oversimplified logic is used by some on this forum to justify rooting for the loss of 1500 pilot jobs. The nerve of those MAG prostitutes trying to move their careers along by earning an ATP and gaining PIC experience. Why can't everyone take advantage of American Eagle's decade-long, right seat seasoning process?

Originally Posted by TheDashRocks (Post 555798)

The Union pilots of Mesa Air Group fought a successful battle to convert a non-union alter ego into a union operation. Doing so required a long term strategic vision and the willingness to eat some crappy contract provisions. This move benefited the union pilots as a whole. However in return, the uninformed refer to this pilot group as "bottom-feeders".

Originally Posted by TheDashRocks (Post 555798)

In a time of economic downturn, the Mesa MEC successfully won an improved contract, which will be up for negotiation in two years.

Originally Posted by TheDashRocks (Post 555798)

There are market forces at work much larger than one pilot group. Mesaba flying in SLC? Are they taking Skywest flying? Flying shifts all the time, yet when Mesa shows up somewhere, the shrieking starts.

Originally Posted by rickair7777 (Post 555880)

...he should running a telemarketing boiler-room, not an airline.

Originally Posted by rickair7777 (Post 555880)

Reasonable to avoid a ten-year upgrade.



This argument worked somewhat until 2008...I gave mag the benefit of the doubt, since the rally cry was to "Fix it Up or Burn it Down in 2008". The reality was the MEC screwed up...they could have killed freedom without concessions (the lawsuit was already in progress).



Um, no. Compared the rest of the industry it is highly concessionary. The mag pilot group had OJ between a rock and a hard place...and that opportunity does not happen every year. He had a host of critical issues to address and was not in a good position for a protracted contract battle. But the 418 handed him a Hanuka present...he got an industry-leading contract (from management perspective) without a fight!

Ultimately mesa is sub-par. The management and corporate climate is subpar. The pilot group's collective self-respect and backbone are lacking. I left because I was afraid of exactly this happening...another cave-in. I actually wanted to stay and go on strike just to exact my share of pain from OJ. I thought a strike was guaranteed....glad I didn't stick around for that.

Maybe you guys will do better in two years, but until then you don't really have any bragging rights.

BTW, how is the implementation coming along on that new contract? Did OJ hold up his end of the bargain in a reasonable time frame? PBS is going to hurt real bad with OJ pulling the strings...



SKW is covering some flying in ATL while Mesaba is in SLC...no net reduction in flying, just an annoying time-zone penalty for early wakeups.

I'm not bashing anyone, and I don't want a bunch of people unemployed...I wouldn't waste my time on that. I am sharing my experience and perspective in hopes of educating entry-level pilots and mesa FO's that there are much better alternatives (when hiring resumes). I would of course like to see OJ out of this industry...he should be running a telemarketing boiler-room, not an airline. Or maybe in an orange jumpsuit :)

Originally Posted by TheDashRocks (Post 555798)

This flawed and oversimplified logic is used by some on this forum to justify rooting for the loss of 1500 pilot jobs. The nerve of those MAG prostitutes trying to move their careers along by earning an ATP and gaining PIC experience. Why can't everyone take advantage of American Eagle's decade-long, right seat seasoning process?

The Union pilots of Mesa Air Group fought a successful battle to convert a non-union alter ego into a union operation. Doing so required a long term strategic vision and the willingness to eat some crappy contract provisions. This move benefited the union pilots as a whole. However in return, the uninformed refer to this pilot group as "bottom-feeders".

In a time of economic downturn, the Mesa MEC successfully won an improved contract, which will be up for negotiation in two years.

Many of us, within and without Mesa, feel deep sympathy for the Aloha folks who have lost their jobs. Many of us feel the same sympathy for the Midwest Airlines pilots on furlough while their routes are flown by E170's crewed by much lower paid pilots. I have not seen the same level of angst and anger directed at RAH pilots as has been directed at MAG pilots.

There are market forces at work much larger than one pilot group. Mesaba flying in SLC? Are they taking Skywest flying? Flying shifts all the time, yet when Mesa shows up somewhere, the shrieking starts.

Originally Posted by maxjet (Post 555905)

Not only does the Dash Rock YOU ROCK! This is very well said. I too am sick of all of the Mesa bashing. Great post, 100% factual and on point!

Originally Posted by powrful1 (Post 555918)

The reason JO can't declare BK.....gives their codeshare partners outs on the current contracts. IE, the shell game is being played with no balls under any of the 3 shells.....so once the spinning stops, not so good.

I was one of the 700+ that left for greener pastures in 2007 and I wish my former brothers/sisters luck but life is better most ANYWHERE else.

If MESA folds and loses everything and pilots are out of jobs, they will lose seniority, and pay, and jobs temporarily....but most of the flying will still have to be done by the other regionals/mainline partners. This movement of jobs to better places while a tough pill to swallow is better for the aviation community as a whole!

Originally Posted by powrful1 (Post 555918)

The reason JO can't declare BK.....gives their codeshare partners outs on the current contracts. IE, the shell game is being played with no balls under any of the 3 shells.....so once the spinning stops, not so good.

I was one of the 700+ that left for greener pastures in 2007 and I wish my former brothers/sisters luck but life is better most ANYWHERE else.

If MESA folds and loses everything and pilots are out of jobs, they will lose seniority, and pay, and jobs temporarily....but most of the flying will still have to be done by the other regionals/mainline partners. This movement of jobs to better places while a tough pill to swallow is better for the aviation community as a whole!

Originally Posted by Purpleanga (Post 555946)

I doubt that all of the airlines will pursue that especially now when they need cheap labor. No doubt a BK would mean downsizing but ultimately the company will not liquidate, some aspects of Mesa are still valuable particularly the CRJ9 and maybe even the GO! operation. UA already gave out a bid proposal for Mesa flying at least that's what some were saying here.

Originally Posted by Purpleanga (Post 555946)

I doubt that all of the airlines will pursue that especially now when they need cheap labor. No doubt a BK would mean downsizing but ultimately the company will not liquidate, some aspects of Mesa are still valuable particularly the CRJ9 and maybe even the GO! operation. UA already gave out a bid proposal for Mesa flying at least that's what some were saying here.

Originally Posted by Purpleanga (Post 555946)

I doubt that all of the airlines will pursue that especially now when they need cheap labor. No doubt a BK would mean downsizing but ultimately the company will not liquidate, some aspects of Mesa are still valuable particularly the CRJ9 and maybe even the GO! operation. UA already gave out a bid proposal for Mesa flying at least that's what some were saying here.

Originally Posted by ToiletDuck (Post 556030)

Thing is that Mesa is a regional. There's not much a regional has that others would want. Anything they have could be quickly taken care of by other regionals.

Originally Posted by iPilot (Post 556330)

Looking back at the last time a regional went BK (Independence/ACA?) it was definitely a hands-down Ch. 7 affair. The CRJs were parked for years and the A319's were simply transferred by the leasing companies to different airlines as fast as they could get repainted. They had the place stripped and buttoned up really quickly. There wasn't really anything there that didn't get reposessed immediately by the owning company.

Originally Posted by rickair7777 (Post 556336)

That was a whole different scenario...indy was NOT a regional, when they ran out of money, they were done. In the case of mesa there might (or might not) be some flying which still needs to be done. If I had to guess the airways 900 flying has the best chance of surviving, since those 900's cannot be easily replaced...a mesa-light consisting of 40 900's and maybe a few dash-8's would be staffed by about 500 pilots (and hopefully a new CEO). Actually those pilots might make out...the judge might give them an "industry standard" contract.

Originally Posted by bradeku1008 (Post 556385)

I think Doug Parker is done with Mesa. Ch 11 or 2012 which ever comes first. Also talking about the stock price look at the article from CNBC UPDATE 1-Mesa ends agreement on certain senior notes - News - CNBC.com it talks about Feb 11 being the day that they will no longer resume talkes with their note holders. I think that after Feb 11 it will be interesting when those companies are demanding money and Mesa dosent have it.

Originally Posted by bradeku1008 (Post 556385)

I think Doug Parker is done with Mesa. Ch 11 or 2012 which ever comes first.