Just a few thoughts, because for all our sakes safety-wise, we need to consider some unpleasant and touchy issues of the planes we fly for a living. The autopilot issue was one of the aspects of the Roselawn accident........that the autopilot can mask deteriorating flight control issues, especially with regard to ice accretion. The ATR-72 is not a SF3 or smaller DHC-8 and neither is the Q400.

I wouldn't be surprised to see a requirement for Q400 ops in icing conditions that the autopilot be deselected in icing conditions (at least temporarily), if investigators find a strong icing involvement.

Many pilots I've flown with are unaware (or have forgotten) that in many airline aircraft, any icing that accretes on the side windows is not considered "normal" icing and is an indication that the airplane is flying in icing conditions that it is not certified for and is outside its flight testing envelope. When these conditions are encountered the autopilot must be selected off and the conditions existed ASAP.

These two pilots sounded like very good up and coming professional pilots, but I'm wondering the extent of their winter flying experience in LARGE and heavy turboprop aircraft were. Lets face it, this airplane is not a "commuter plane", but is an airliner. In fact, it is in many ways more demanding then most airline jets, because of its vulnerability to conditions EXACTLY like these. No "hot" wing, more limited performance, unpowered flight controls and extensive exposure to enroute icing. 3300 and 2200 hours respectively total time does not allow for a extensive exposure to this flying.

This aircraft (like the ATR-72) is a different animal then most of the smaller turboprops and due to its weight, unpowered flight controls and sophisticated automation making ops in more significant icing conditions demanding and require serious vigilence. There are MANY pilots flying the ATR that have a fairly complacant attitude about its operation in winter and signicant icing because they've never experienced the aircraft except in predominently benign conditions.

I'm not belittling these two apparently fine aviators, because it may turn out they were victims themselves of their lack of experience in THIS aircraft (of this size and in these conditions) and the ability to recognize they may have been in conditions the aircraft was not certified for and its susceptibility to control difficulties in certain phases of flight. I've heard here that this aircraft also is known for frequent deice system component faliure (the ATR had the same problem when relatively new) and if there was a faliure (especially in these conditions) that ATC should have been informed immeadiately for priority handling and the aircraft HAND FLOWN at higher speeds and shallow turns.

Hopefully the investigators will get a better handle on what happened fairly soon with the quality of the Boxes and we'll know if large turboprop icing has come back to tap us on the shoulder to remind us of its demands. Although the "hinge-moment reversal" issues related to the ATR are unlikley to be involved here, I have a sick feeling that another sad, tragic and painful lesson is once again being handed to us professional pilots about ops in significant icing.

For me, this is an emotional flashback to Holloween 1994 and the friends and collegues I lost that day and a tear sheds for what the employees of Colgan must be experiencing as well as the loved ones of the victims.

I've been there (and still am) and it doesn't get any easier. You forget sometimes............but then you remember.

As a Q400 FO in Europe and a fellow citizen I am shocked by what happened. I just want to express my sympathy and condolences to the families of the crew and passengers.
I love this airplane and it is the first Q400 to come down with a terrible loss of life. From the posts I read, very nice people were part of the crew. Godspeed to them all.

You've missed my point ENTIRELY. Emotion can do that, so I understand your misguided comments. As one who has been down this road before (experienced it DIRECTLY), I know more then most about the pain, loss and rememberance that situations like this produce. and all phases of the grief process.

The loss of my beloved freinds and collegues on American Eagle 4184 sadly produced one gift they could give me as a professional pilot who had to carry on...........the ability (and willingness) to accept and learn. Accept what occured and learn from it. There but for the grace of god, go I. It wasn't their idea and one they would willingly choose. They did nothing wrong and knowing them, I'm sure would have wanted their ultimate sacrifice to mean something to the rest of us who continue to fly..............to learn something and understand.

"Thoughts and prayers" for Marvin and Rebecca aren't enough. WE owe THEM more.

IF history has repeated itself (and I believe it has) and 2 more of our fellow aviators have become unwilling teachers, I think they would want the same for us as well..........to accept and learn. They sounded like those very type of people, who when forced to give themselves up for something, that at least there was meaning and benefit to those who can use that for the benefit of others.........but most importantly to not forget.

Again, this is NOT a judgement call, but recognition of another painful wake-up just how careful we have to be and how fast life can change.

I for one appreciated eagle's post

I think the point he's trying to make, is that the best way to honor their memories is to learn from this. We should all become better pilots and learn from this tragedy, so it doesn't happen again. edit: But I'm sure we all knew that.

Eagle I do understand where you are coming from, and I appreciate your post. We all feel and think differently about things like this - and I respect and understand that, and I'm open to everyone's feelings.

For me personally - it has caused me to go back and really think about things. I'm a good competent pilot, and I'm very open minded and willing to learn - but there is SO MUCH to learn it scares me. I can fly the plane well, and land and take off in crosswinds, and fly around bad weather, and blah blah blah - but in a situation like this, one second your fine and the other you're tumbling towards the ground with the task of making a split second life or death decision. If anything, it has caused me to go back and learn as much as I possibly can about icing, and deep stalls. It has opened my mind a bit more than it already is. I think actually, it has scared me into being a better pilot. I just hate that good people had to die in order for that to happen.

I do owe it to Marvin and Beki to make sure I take as much as I can away from this unfortunate mess, and to take this opportunity to develop into a much safer and knowledgable pilot. I made a promise to them that I would.

I totally agree, that's why I emailed cnn. I included in my email that they do a little bit of research before making their facts public for the respect of all lives lost.(ie: carb icing). It's irresponsible journalism

A moment of silence for all.......

That was EXACTLY my point.

It would be stupid and callous of me to lay blame on these two pilots, especially when all the facts are unknown and ESPECIALLY at this stage when many who knew them and all those at Colgan are still in the early stages of shock and disbelief.

The two pilots of 4184 were VERY experienced and knowledgeable about both the ATR and icing and still it didn't matter. To those commercial aviators not yet spoiled by hot wings, excess performance and turbofans and look at those boot covered wings this "demon" is out there.......and the autopilot may be your worst enemy. To those that bypassed this experience, a little more respect is due for the (usually newer) pilots who must face this additional demon that lies over their shoulder and must be dealt with.

Out of addional respect for those who have and will suffer, I will leave my comments at that and learn from any more info that the investigation produces.