What would it take?
 

My question is, what would it take to cause you to seek employment elsewhere; in a different profession; other than as an airline pilot at a regional airline? I would like to know; at what point would it become possible no longer? I would also be interested in hearing your ideas on how far is too far to go in seeking to remain employed as a regional airline pilot. I would also like to know if you would be willing to work for an alter-ego carrier and what you think the ramifications of doing so will be for your career expectations. I would also like to know if you would recommend being an airline pilot to your son; assuming you have one; or your daughter. Please be truthful and explain your position to the best of your ability; I believe we all need to hear it.

whoa





It wouldn't let me submit this post unless it was at least ten characters so I added this sentence.

Only time will tell. The desperation has been increasing with time but, it is quickly approaching its, "Critical Angle of Attack," at which point the level of desperation rapidly decreases then becomes no more and I will say "******* it! Time for a new career!"

I think I know where you are going with this. Let me take a stab at it, you are at TSA and you are fed up with how you are being treated and paid so you want to jump to the other side and fly at GoJet. So here is my feeling, ride it out brotha. Do not do this to your self because it will devalue what your your fellow borthers are trying to do at TSA. It sucks big time but you are not furloughed and you are not supporting what TSA Holdings is doing to your compnay by jumping to the "alter ego". The only one that can make that decision is you so just choose wisely. This fall out will probably be ending hopefully by the end of the year and things should start to be on the up and up soon.

Good question, I don't have a definitive answer but I would know it when it came. This is my second career and I can tell you that I knew when to leave the first. I can say that I have been pretty lucky in this career though so it would take a lot for me to leave. I consider my job fairly stable, I make ok money and I still love what I do. Yes, the company messes with me, the benefits suck and being on reserve is boring but I live in base, don't have any kids and have loads of free time to pursue hobbies.

My advice would be if there are enough times when you are up in the air and you can get through a whole flight without steaming too much about what the company is doing to you on the ground then stay. If it is following you around like a dark cloud wherever you go (i.e. affecting your life too much away from the job) then start looking into other things.

Go figure. My son hates to fly, does not necessarily like to fly with me when I take him somewhere in one of my friend's personal aircraft. He only goes out of convenience. I am sure not everyone's kids are like this, I mean they ARE interested in flying, but mine has other ideas about a career.

Don't think i'd try to convience my kids to not pursue aviation, but i wouldn't sugar coat what aviation is like.

As far as what it would take for me to leave flying. If i'm unable to support myself and my family in a manner that i would be happy with, then i'd be willing to say goodbye to the cockpit. What defines the proper manner to support the family, that will change from day to day.

The time away from flying is pretty good, it's always nice to be away from the cockpit, however, i tend to dread getting back in.

Well sir, first of all, welcome to APC!

It's interesting that you bring this situation up though. When I wanted to start flying and possibly make a career out of it, my Dad who is a pilot for SWA, warned me about the dangers of aviation, the hardships, and the drawbacks. At the time I had no idea how highly SWA was regarded amongst the aviation community. So yes, he tried to warn me about aviation, but I just fell in love with it. I will do the exact same thing for my son/daughter whenever I may be so privileged to have one some day (i'm only 23). If they truly want to be a pilot, then so be it, but I will warn them about what they are getting themselves into.

Regarding what it would take to leave aviation. It would take an act of God for me personally. I absolutely love my job and can't possibly imagine doing anything else. I enjoy other things, but couldn't see myself doing anything else for the rest of my life. At what point would it become no longer possible? I would say if you had a family you were supporting and making good money (70K+), it would be damn near impossible to leave to take a 50% paycut and still try to support your family.

In response to your question about leaving your regional for an alter-ego... the BIG one I see here is the situation with TSA and GoJet. I think TR Disagree handled that one fairly well already, but the only thing that would force me to move is if I lost my job at my first airline.

You're going to have to explain that. Because I don't think there is anyone out there in aviation or in the real world in general that doesn't take into account their interests first before others. If people don't agree with that they are lying. If you don't believe m, take a ride to the GJ offices in STL and look at the STACKS of resumes of virtual every commercial pilot that doesn't have anything going for them right now. You're confusing a little company feud which is pointless anyways with reality. It is not the companies fault that the market does not need 50 seaters. It's called business, the right to make a profit.

I would take a non-aviation job before working at an alter-ego. Seniority is not moving in this industry, your career will progress the same whether you are the lasy guy hired in the last upswing or the first guy hired in the next upswing.

After having done it once, I seriously doubt that I would work for a bottom-feeder again either. There are easier ways to make $20K and be gone 26 days/month. Alaska north slope, etc.

I lose this gig I am done, you have to be out of your mind to work/commute for a regional airline, and dont give me the "what else am I going to do?" you can make 20k anywhere and shame on you for getting an Aeronautical science degree

Um...perhaps waking up sober one day. That, or maybe losing my crack pipe...

For my son,

There is a surprising amount you can do outside of aviation with the skills you learn as a pilot. I left the industry after I lost my captain's slot due to an alter ego company (guess which one). I was able to get into a top ten MBA program because of my unique aviation experience, and I will soon start working for a great company at a salary I barely dreamed possible. There is nothing special about me at all - you would simply be shocked by the amount of people that are impressed with what we do - and yes, in my experience, our skills - the math, the coolness under pressure, etc are transferable to many careers.

I may be a bit biased, but I would never encourage anyone to go to an alter ego for one simple reason: it is a sign of weakness. It shows you were not able to "hack it" like everyone else, and though I doubt many alter ego types will suffer dramatically you just never know.

Example,
About ten friends of mine from my MBA program are going to work at United, Delta, Continental, Airtran, American, FedEx, and UPS - all at the associate VP level. They are very familiar with the fact that I have 4200 hours, and I lost out on a captain slot due to an alter ego. An ex friend of mine who is being furloughed from my old airline is planning to go to the alter ego airline. I explained this betrayal to my MBA friends, who are sympathetic, and they swore that this person will never step foot in their company. This is in addition to being vilified by many (now ex) friends of his who flew with him over the last 2 years. Will this prevent him from a job at these companies? Maybe not. Am I a bad person for doing this? Probably, but few know how much I sacrificed to get to that position in the first place.

My advice - stick with it and wait for a turnaround rather than looking for a short cut, and if this is unacceptable, look for a way out.

PM me if I can help any more.

Where's a violin when you need one. Notice how you're making it seem like your problems are because of GJ. You're going to take your whining into the real world as well huh? It's time to take personal responsibility. Good thing you're going to be management maybe you can start your own very pilot firendly airline where everyone makes bank and have limited scope. Good luck champ!!

This was a second career for me also. I took a 2/3 pay cut to come to an airline from driving tractor-trailer. Yes, I made way more driving than flying....sad. People thought I was crazy for quitting and coming to a regional for low pay, but I guess it's that love of flying thing. Well, two years later, here I am, out on the street, unemployed. I have set a date of July 19 as the date that I will not go back to my airline if recalled. That is 6 months of being furloughed. If I do get called back, I will most likely be on the bottom of the list and on reserve forever. It's not really worth the hassle for the pay they give. I really do not see any recalls in the near future, so I guess July 19 will be the day.

In the mean time I am out there submitting resumes for flying jobs and driving jobs, and whatever else pays ok. Flying for any carrier would be fine with me. Money, that's all it is really about. It is a job, just like any other job. And you get a job....to make money. Pay me enough and I'll fly anything. I'm not one of those pilots with Shiny Jet Syndrome or dreams of flying the A380. If you gave me enough to live comfortably, I would fly a Cessna 152, ultra-light, or powered parachute. Who cares what you fly, your flying, and getting paid for it.

As a former Marine, I was always pro military and thought that my son could one day be a Marine. Times changed (read: GWB's private war), and now I tell him to stay away from the military (he is 19). I don't want him to die for a useless purpose.
As a, now, former airline pilot, I would steer him away from this profession too. He makes more as a manager of a Pizza Hut than I did as a first year FO, and almost what I made as a second year FO. Now, if recalled and in third year pay, I may be making more than him, but I'm 40 and he is 19.

first and second year may be worse but 3rd till retirement at 65 will be a whole lot more.

To the original poster, I probably wouldn't ask advice from washed out pilots or people that have left this profession. The problem is that too many of them believe that there is something wrong with the profession when it was just them. For example, Ihategojet is a 23 year old FO who was promised a one year upgrade and when he didn't get his promise after 12 months he blamed the whole world including his company and left the whole profession. Me, me, me, he thinks that his upgrade is owed to him. Most pilots that are working, and have some seniority under them are very content with the job. It's not as well paying as it was pre 911 but it still beats doing anything else. With that said I would not do this job unless you KNOW it's in your blood. It's one of those jobs that you really have to love.

Hows GoJet BUR? And define personal responsibility, please...

Hey brother, I've never taken any struck job, I know that it's just like any other regional out there, no better, no worse. What you dream about it being anything other than a scab job is your problem. I think it's very sad that pilots take out their frustration their problems on other pilots.

BUR, why don't you get rid of "Furloughed" under your position...

And to the OP, It would take a lot to get me out of a 121 cockpit. I am going to fly until the day I die, whether it be the 744 or a C-182 on floats. And I will absolutely take the latter, in a heart-beat, over the option of a bottom-feeder or Alter-Ego any day. Again, I will NOT sell myself out (nor a fellow Pilot) for the privilege of flying a Jet. That is how I sleep at night.

To the original poster:


If there were an opportunity for something else stable with decent pay, there is a good chance that I would probably go for it. With the things the way they are at my company (scumbag alter-ego), there is no future.

However, I am going to stick things out and work to improve things as long as I am here. I am not going to let the a-holes in management or the scumbags at the alter-ego get me down.

Don't be so sure, it's because you have a job.


Join the real world. Wishing and threatening people is not going to make Gojet go away. Nobody cares about a little feud, because that's what it is. There is absolutely no legal basis to back anything up on GJ. It's just all feelings and opinions. The fact is that it's not an alterego, it's unionized and it's flying that is NOT TSA's and more importantly it's not struck work. Beyond the facts no body cares, and it shows. Now when push comes to shove, we really see how much pilots care about one another before themselves. They don't. Many former airline and furloughed have flocked to GJ, from every regional and furloughed major. I'm sure everybody is for unity though, everyone says it......

Really, people, really?

A question about the state of the industry as a whole, and what it would take to give up the dream of flying has turned into a GJ bashing thread.

I understand your frustrations, but seriously, the problems in this industry go way deeper than any one airline, "alter ego" or otherwise. If you can't help but see everything through the lens of GJ and what personally happened to you...that is unfortunate.

I lost my job and there is no way in hell that I would go to the "alter-ego" because it devalues the regional industry, and hurts the chances of the other side of the company to fight for what is right. I know that 121 jobs are next to impossible but I am going to wait out my furlough or take a job with another carrier that has respect for the industry. At least when I was flying I did not have to hide my employee badge. Usually anyone that has any grasp of union labor and the airlines will think something is strange when 1 parent company holds two separate companies with 2 different seniority lists 2 different unions for representation and crap pay scale. Does this remind anyone else of Frank Lorenzo?

Unfortunatly GoJet/TSA is a problem in the industry and we are just laying out our opinion and some facts to help this person make the most educated decision.

That's not what this has become my friend. We have all read the GoJet bashing threads, and this is very quickly becoming one of them. I think anyone that has read my posts knows that I don't chime in to the public bashing of anyone very often (I'm honestly not sure I have done it at all here). Let's leave the alter-ego airline question to the response that the OP wanted, not a bashing frenzy. There's not going to be any point to this thread if it turns into yet another public bashing.

Oh, and SAAB ... I was one of those "shame on you..." people who graduated with an Aviation Sciences degree ;) That was simply due to the fact that I would have rather shot myself than sit through another Economics course, lol. I am planning to go back and get a degree in Meteorology though sometime. I would love to have a backup degree there :D

Wish i had a backup degree, on the contrary, they're often not practical for someone to get. I once pursued a double major (aviation/automotive design) but got out for the sake of graduating. Luckily, my aviation degree has helped to find me other work, and i might have found myself struggling with the automotive degree in the current climate, not to mention how competitive it is for jobs in that sector. A degree in something that's really grounded is typically a good bet, or, training in something that will be needed in the future; Teachers, nurses, etc.

Because of my situation (being at Trans States) i can say that I wasn't interested in an alter ego type operation. (i'll leave the flaming aside, don't want to destroy this thread) However, each situation is different. I didn't start looking for another job when I heard they might be furloughing, instead, i began looking well before that, when things seemed like they MIGHT get rough around here. On advice from my wife, i interviewed with the company (last year) even though i was still flying from the captains seat, and would be looking at a pay cut to make the move. Honestly, I'm lucky that i began looking at things so far out, cause if it I hadn't, I'd would have found myself commuting to a far away base, with everyone else, being on reserve, and supporting the family on FO pay. Each situation is different, but my advice would be to always keep your options and your sights open.

Also, if you don't think you can find another job because you have a degree in aviation (which we've all come to think of as useless), then you need to dig deeper into your job responsibilities at work. Also, take a look at Sully's resume, (it was posted somewhere) many of us could use many of his same descriptors to define our job experience in our own aviation careers. Don't sell yourselves short. :)

Agreed. The key takeaway is the last line: don't sell yourself short.

Uh, I did take responsibility: I applied to awesome schools and now I am starting an awesome career, which is awesome.

By the way, what is "firendly?"

When I do start a pilot friendly airline you cannot come because you cannot spell. At least you’ll fit in at GJ, genius.

Get a room you two, lol :rolleyes:

If furloughed I would ride the unemployment wave and go back to school for either 1.) Business MGNT 2.) ATC or 3) Join the Air Force. You can become an Officer up the the age of 35 (I think) but I'd probably want to become a controller or MX that way if I can't fly'em, I can either direct them or fix them. Just my .02

I just wanted to clarify one thing; I personally have no intention of going to work for an alter ego. If I get furloughed or fired or otherwise can't do this on the up and up; then I won't do it anymore. As for those who choose to jump to GoJets; I mostly feel sorry for them; they don't realize that their operation is much like the OLD TSA where you really had to watch your A_ _, because there were so many ways to get screwed. In addition, I suspect that they might also not realize that TSA will likely survive our current contract dispute and next time it will be THEY who will be whipsaw'd and THEY are obviously a weaker and less coherent group of pilots(?). My conscience is clear.

lol devalues the regional industry? There was value to the regionals? Last time I checked most regional FOs live in poverty and CAs barely make it. Let me tell you how it works in the real world. In the real world, when you lose a job you can't be expected to move your wife 2 kids into your moms basement and ride it out on principle. Are you kidding me? Not to mention there is nothing wrong with GJ flying, it's not struck work. All of you guys that are bashing, have an alternative, therefore have no interest in going to GJ in the first place. Don't confuse that with you not willing to go to GJ. Most however have no choice other than to keep flying to support their families and the certain life style they're used to and more importantly stay current. If people told their wives/kids who were used to big cars, second houses and free weekend flights that they'd much rather work at home depot or even join the reserves because of a petty regional feud they would be laughed out of the house and probably divorced the next day. People need to open their eyes, no one is in a position to judge, especially REGIONAL pilots.

so why were you so harsh on Gojet pilots before you started working there?:rolleyes:

Human nature. One is always right, regardless, all the way to the grave.

BUR why do you have to keep justifying where you work? Ohh you work at GoJet so it makes you feel better. Its an alter-ego company that stepped on TSA pilots. Ohh well guess that just happens now a days.