So to you junior fo's in ORD and JFK hope you enjoy your block or better while it lasts, because you should have voted NO!-"we never had a vote!!!"

I agree. I look forward to the yes voters beginning to complain now that their contract is getting into full swing. Hate to say I told you so.

Bunch of selfish idiots. Too bad we can't furlough 100 of the yes voters. They had no problem selling their fellow pilots down the river with a yes vote, so why should we care about their jobs?

HAHAHAHA OMG I haven't heard "Chode-box" since high school. That's the funniest thing I have heard all week. Thank you for making me laugh, I needed that. :D

No but really, I don't believe this is a direct result of PBS. I really did at first, but like I said, once I found out more info, I changed my tune of thinking. Yes it starts next bid, but I think that's just a coincidence. If attrition had kept up where it was in the fall, I don't think this would have happened. Then again, I'm just some pion pilot, and I have no idea what I'm talking about, so I could just be talking out of my you know what. :eek:

I don't know if I forsee more furloughs later or not - but I can definitely see them getting these 100 pilots off property, and then going "OOPS! We actually needed them!" And then they would have to pay for more training to get them back online, so perhaps they would just keep them on furlough and have an understaffed airline like we did last year. I have no faith in our management. A bunch of incompetent idiots up there.

So lets see here, on the current seniority list (On Pilot louge, seniority list, "View All Domiciles"), is that the most up to date one, not including our 64 pilots we have on furlough now? I'm sure there is more involved with just pulling the bottom 100 off that list isn't there?

I think it's time to move on from the vote. All we can do is work to make this contract livable. If anyone wants to know how I voted, I will show you in person my vote receipt. I kept it just in case. However, there are so many other things I could go on and on about that I'm furious about, most recently notable, the health benefits going up. It's all BS. If we didn't have this new contract, we'd be under the old one for the next 18 months, so looking back on it, I'm not all that disappointed it went through. I'm pretty indifferent about the whole thing now, and pointing the fingers at our own pilots (while all of us do have a hand in this) will do nothing but further divide us. We need to do the exact opposite if we want to get anywhere.

I expect the company to be a pain in the neck when it comes to contract implementation (ANY contract) as they are a bunch of worthless, lying, two timing scumbags - but if we can put our foot down with this contract, maybe the next one will be much better, and we can hold them accountable for their actions.

Nope its pretty simple. 100 active pilots off the bottom of the seniority list.

Did they say there was more to come or just the 100 guys on April 7th?

So far, just the 100 in April. So that would make 164 total.

I'm not sure how long it will take to furlough all 100 though - whether they are talking one quick swift sweep, or over several months.

How many on April 7th, did the letter say?

No. See the 1st post on this thread. I think the poster cut and pasted.

What a wonderful company. April 7th's less than two weeks... and people still don't know who's going. At least at TSA they did give us almost a months notice...

Well this is how Mesa does it. Look at the 49 in July that got about a 5 min notice. They were told in ground school that they were done. As well as the 14 furloughs and myself in October that got a two week notice. They never give much more than that...

I am sorry for those who were in training that got shown the door...lesson learned. I am actually surprised Mesa didn't terminate right there....but with anticipated attrition I can understand why HR wouldn't want to cut ties with those who would drive to the bottom.....to all those who are out, or about to be out of jobs for a while keep up the good fight.

You have to give some of the other Regionals credit -- RAH gave their guys 60 days notice when they dropped the F-Bomb last year. 2 weeks notice sucks. Good luck to all the guys hitting the streets. We pray for all of you and all the guys already on the street.

Republic sent home pilots in training with no notice. These pilots were technically fired with no recall rights. The guys flying the line were given 60 days notice, but it's still not right. Some of those pilots quit other jobs to go to Republic.

So what's the proper procedure for furloughs?

Back last may, I received a WARN letter of a possible impending furlough. It said by law the company had to give me 30 days.

What's the deal with this WARN act? How can they just walk in a class and send people home?

This whole thing is just BS. We NEED those pilots on property. We are certainly not properly staffed on the Freedom side, and I doubt we are on the Mesa side as everything I try to swap gets denied.

Dublin - how can you not see that this is a clear by-product of the PBS software. PBS allows the company to assign open time during intial bidding, negating the need for additional rsv staffing. This fact was brought up when this POS TA was being SOLD to the pilot group.

furloughs
 

First of all!


For the company]PBS creates the line solution for each crewmember in one process without the need of pre-built bid lines and the secondary process, such as trading awarded lines. It saves operation cost by eliminating the conflict between the pre-built bid lines with the existing carry-in and pre-assigned activities and by reducing the amount of reserve crewmembers needed, especially at the beginning of the bid month. In addition, due to the simplified process, it leaves extra time for crew planners to handle last minute schedule change.

I voted "NO" for the TA! If you don't believe that PBS runs more efficient then read above. Please tell me you don't think that the company wants it so BAD cause it's less efficient. Now it's on property. They need it more than we do.
Remember they tried to dangle 737 for PBS about 5 years ago.


If we feel so bad for the furlooughs lets squash the PBS RIGHT NOW! The Poison pill lasts for 1 year. They have invested lots of money in this we all know that, THIS IS LEVERAGE! The company did not want the stigma of furloughs with PBS (and the new contract) so they had to wait a couple of months. The company has not paid us for 902. They said they exhausted all means to prevent a furlough but they did not talk to the union about it? Come on look at this. They (the company) just tossed a torch on OUR straw house. What are we gonna do?

The above sounds good in principle, but I don't think it will happen. AND there still will be pilots picking up open time with more furloughs hitting the streets! Do you have your "400" sticker yet?

I was going to have to fly with a captain for a round trip on Sunday that likes to pick up open time (and I'm sure he picked that up to, because it was part of a line). I already gave this guy hell once, maybe he saw I was on the schedule and got rid of it. Makes me so angry. I was looking forward to that one round trip. This one guy is a 7-8 year captain, he has a business on the side, AND he picks up open time. Greedy and selfish.

I don't have a problem with picking up open time to get back to minimum guarantee (after say, you swapped a trip that now put you below it by 4-5 hours - that's okay in my book). But picking up open time ON TOP of what you were awarded is NOT okay. I have never picked up ANY open time, or volunteered for any flying. It bothers the hell out of me that there are a bunch of pilots who do it, and who do not give a crap about their fellow pilots. I am not blaming them for the furlough directly, but they are certainly NOT helping it.

WARN act only protects against mass lay offs. I don't believe 100 pilots (7-10%) meets the criteria. Interestingly enough, everyone has always said that PBS reduces your staffing requirements by about 5-10%.

IAH, doesn't look like the cash flow question was answered. Sure, Mesa had an operating net income in their fiscal 1st qtr ended 12/31/08, however they still have negative cash flow of $645K. I didn't look at their future note and debt/principle commitments in 2009, but they will not have positive cash flow unless those go down. So as of the 12/31/08 10Q they are still losing cash (not bashing, I'm indifferent, these are just facts).

see pages 5-6 of the 10Q: http://ccbn.10kwizard.com/cgi/image?...=1&xbrl=0&dn=2

Well, surprise, surprise, furloughs @ Mesa
 

Do this first, rather than blasting him on a forum publicly without giving him a chance to explain (what I did).

MAG tried this after 9/11, but ALPA stopped it. Just keeping it factual.

RG was hired by MAG in 2000. After securing the left seat of the ERJ out of seniority and then going on a sightseeing tour of DC, he moved into flight management. He left MAG for US Airways in late 2007, decided he didn't like the idea of being a junior FO with a commute to the west coast (he'd be furloughed now too, to boot), and came back to Mesa. Somehow, he never lost his longevity, but did lose his seniority - so he didn't go on a LOA. Where was ALPA on this one? Who knows, but he is management, and won't be getting furloughed. He was not an A-Lister.

So picking up open time while your fellow pilots are on furlough is ok by you. :mad:

And your logic - if you're below min guarantee, you can pick up enough to get back to it?! It's called "guarantee" for a reason - you're guaranteed to get it, no need to fly to it! And if you somehow swapped to go below min and won't get your guarantee anymore - don't swap if you can't take the hit! Problem solved.

You guys can talk circles around this if you want, but, in the end, it's simple. You voted in PBS = you voted to furlough these 100 guys.

Oh, just to throw another wrench into the mess - Island Air has Dash's. Looks like there might be a shortage of Dash drivers @ Mesa. Not saying it will happen, but codeshare is KILLING the future of all US pilots. MAG pilots should be flying those routes in MAG Dash 8's in competition with Island Air, just as WN pilots should be flying passengers to Canada and Mexico, United (or even Air Lingus) pilots should be flying their own passengers to and from Europe, etc.

Great TA. Can't wait for the next round of excuses.

Where's MAGHub?

If they're around till then I'd be very rich. 10000 shares boyyyy. If these furloughs aren't because of PBS then the timing is very suspect since PBS will start around the same time... I think around the time of the TA PBS was a big win item by mesa mec wasn't it?? To be fair though, mesa is doing badly financially so it can't all be all because of management, the pilots did have the right to be concerned about their jobs, which apparently has proved futile in the end anyways. When will people learn, you will never win against a pos bottom feeder management....

No I don't think picking up opentime is okay. But for the past two months, I've swapped and dropped, and have made an average of 55 hours of pay for both months. That's my own doing, but I know a captain that swapped some stuff around (since they are limiting what we can do with FLICA) and is now BELOW his guarantee, which he will not get paid for. He has a family and is in jeopardy of losing his house. He still does not pick up opentime above his guarantee, just a few more hours to get BACK to guarantee. I am in total disagreement with picking up opentime overtop of guarantee. Hell I don't even pick up ANY opentime!

And as far as the other comments in your post, I guess I will finally break down. I will PM you about your "concerns."

There is nothing wrong with using the open time pot to massage your schedule while there are people on furlough so long as you dont end up with more hours than what your original line held.

IF PBS did cause these furloughs there is a way to get these guys back to work. Pull out PBS from the contract. Remember we have a year from signing to excercise that option. At the moment nobody really knows if PBS is going to help us build the schedules we want. I say give it a few months, put it to a vote and then pull the plug if that is what the pilot group wants, if this pilot group can ever grow a set and figure out as a team what it wants/needs.

Okay so we give up block or better but who's getting paid block or better anyway? Only today I was over block by 30 minutes due to a wait for an airstart. The door was closed and brake released iaw ground personel instructions. Tonight I noticed that someone has changed our ACARS times in CrewTrac to match a normal block time. What's up with that? Who is authorized to change our ACARS times? It seems our company is doing everything they can not to pay block or better. How dishonest are these people and how much effort is it going to take me to monitor every leg and every pay check to make sure I get paid my rightful block or better.

I do suspect that PBS was the straw that broke the camels back with regard to the furloughs. It seems likely there were many other factors at work. I've no evidence of this. It's just a hunch.

Airfix

Good idea. That requires the MEC to admit they made a mistake. Ask Delta, Fed Ex, and Southwest how hard it is to get leadership to admit they messed up.

This is old hat for MAG. Is BL still around (sortta' rhymes with a 'mess a' porn')? It's illegal to do this, of course. Take digital photos of your times on the aircraft and in the logbook, and log in to CrewWeb and take a screen shot and print it out before the times are changed in the evening. Each evening after flying, log into crewweb, and then call dispatch to report the errors. If they refuse to change them, file a grievance with ALPA. Remember, your logbook is the final authority, and should agree with the times put in the trip can, which is a 'company record', so they know what the real times are. Self-disclose to your POI. It won't be the first time the POI sees this one.

For all those who aren't at MAG - yeah, I'm serious.

The problem is that they have done away with the AFML (Aircraft Flight and Maintenance Log) and it is now an AML (Aircraft Maintenance Log). No flight times are recorded in the new AML so we have no paper document of the times, except our logbooks!

Every time I have seen times recorded on CrewTrac in error I have gone through the pilot lounge "Correct CrewTrac Times" form and submitted my change. It has always been accepted. However in these tough times and with the company interest in reducing block or better I can see it getting harder to change these times.

ALPA has asked that every time the company has changed times that we should submit discrepancies to the union, which I have done, so they can log the data for any future grievance. I email a screen shot of the CrewTrac page, a scan of my logbook and copy of the change request form that I have submitted.

On the whole I am scepticle about our managements ethics. It is funny that prior to block or better about 40% (est.) of my flights were over published segment times and since block or better I've only had a handful of flights go over the segment times. I'm sure the company manipulates the published segment times for their benefit but we have no way to police this. The NEXT contract should have some union input and oversight of segment times.

To fully police this new contract wrt pay will take a lot of effort by each individual pilot. I'm still trying to work out the easiest way to just track and compare awarded block to actual block. There is not enough room in the little red log book.

At some point the amount of effort to police the company gives diminishing returns in error correction. I need to find a balance but the point is none of us should have to police the company.

I remember in the sales pitch the union gave us, one of their reasons for not having water tight language in the contract is that there have been so many changes in our management that these new managers are "good guys" and are working with the union and we all agree on the intent! Yeah right!

With regard to the furloughs, even if hell freezes over, the people that voted in this contract will never ever vote out PBS and lose block or better just to get some anonymous junior people their jobs back. Its a fact of life with this predominantely selfish pilot group. The rest of us just have to deal the best we can with the hand we have been dealt and try to improve things for the people that come after us.

Yes unfortunatley PBS will not be voted out. The Mesa lifers who are part of the 418 will not vote out PBS. It is that simple. Being on the streets right now sucks; hopefully these pilots have learned what it is like being jr at Mesaland and plan accordingly when they have a chance to come back.

:rolleyes:

Spoken like a naive and selfish DEN guy.

Not sure where you get off saying that... and I don't appreciate the personal attack.

I am in this and am on the side of guys should not pick up open time period. Open time means there is a need to be filled, a need necessary because people have been furloughed.

To defend a few people who may have been misunderstood, let me pose a question:

You are based in IAD, but commute from ORD
You are a line holder

Do you guys think it's wrong to drop a 20 hour 4 day trip out of IAD, and in that trips place, pick up a 20 hour 4 day trip out of ORD?

why would it be a problem your not doing the company a favor
even better try to pick it up minus a overnight or 2 to burn a reserve

HAHAHA

dont you work for gojet?
pretty sure that is because segment times are gone and replaced with actual scheduled times from the partner.

Did you miss the part where I said not to end up with more hours than your line had?

Time in the open time pot will be assigned to reserves. We can't even do straight pickups anymore nor would I condone it with people on the street. However, a swap swaps your trip, puts it in the pot and replaces it with something else. The required level of staffing is not affected by swaps unless you swap out a lower time trip for a greater time trip. Savvy?

1) if you're going to get min guarantee anyway - YES
2) if you're not getting guarantee anymore, and just trading one trip for another (and not getting paid more than straight time) then you're trip trading, not picking up open-time - NO

The original poster wrote: I read that to say either:
1) I have a 75 hour min guarantee and a 75 hour awarded line. I swap a 20 hour trip for a 15 hour trip that puts me @ 70 hours. I pick up a trip out of open-time to get me back to 75 hours. I'm going to get 75 hours of pay anyway, it's my guarantee.
2) I have a 75 hour min guarantee and a 85 hour awarded line. I swap a 20 hour trip for a 15 hour trip that puts me @ 80 hours. I pick up a trip out of open-time to get me back to 85 hours, my awarded line value.

Neither of these are ok in my book if guys are on furlough.

If this is not the situation being presented, my apologies.:o

Only thing is if you do a straight drop on a trip and it brings you below your guarantee your guarantee is reduced. For example, you have a 80 hour line and drop a trip valued at 12 hours. Your guarantee would be reduced to 68 hours.

Of course good luck doing that -- "denied insufficient reserve coverage."

So you drop a trip, bringing you below guarantee, and then think you can pick up open time later at some point to 'make yourself whole'?

This is picking up open-time with guys on furlough, plain and simple, to me.

You either drop one trip and pick up another in one transaction (a trip trade), or you drop the trip, let it get flown by a reserve, and take the pay hit - that's why you "dropped" the trip, you decided you'd rather not fly it and take the pay hit associated with your decision.

And, the best part, why you can't do it - 'insufficient reserve coverage'? That's b/c you're not properly staffed! Why? B/c you have . . . guys on furlough!:mad:

I guess you can call me a 'strict constructionist'. When guys are on furlough, you fly your awarded line and don't deviate, keeping the onus on the company if things don't work out, rather than on you. The company will almost always build something more inefficiently that you could - and that's the point. When guys are on furlough, you fly the way the company wants you to. They made the decision to furlough, so they decided that they were overstaffed, and they don't need your help fixing their staffing model.

Go ahead and flame me if you want, but these arguments against someone wanting to bring their pay back up to what they originally had without going over is silly and stupid. They are not helping the company or hurting furloughees either way.

In my career with the airlines I have NEVER picked up open time, only dropped what I can't handle with my other employers schedule. However, I am not going to fault someone - most importantly an FO who is making 30-ish dollars an hour for trying to make his pay whole while adjusting his schedule to fit his needs, IF he/she is even able to. Kudos to them for even being able to.

I am willing to bet that those who comment negatively against others who even suggest such a thing are two-timers and would do it with a slight chuckle if the time came to where the option afforded them.

Whatever...

If you think about it, picking up open time (as a line holder) keeps reserve people at home. You're crazy if you think management doesn't look at reserve utilization when deciding to furlough, and if so, how many.

I made it just fine on F/O pay. It wasn't easy and I had to watch every penny, but if you live within your means its very doable.

I haven't picked up open time since we furloughed the original 64. It's a mixture of that its wrong and the fact that I value my days off. I'm not looking for a ribbon, or a pat on the back; just stating that it doesn't seem like the right thing to do.