pay issue
 

A few things,
the pay sucks for regionals and soon majors!

can we blame the new hires, No because they do not negotiate pay!

new hires dont set miniumums etc.

The more experienced guys who are in th ecompany need to pull for higher pay!

That is how it will change.

NWA Delta should strike instead of taking the crappy pay. It will go as low as the seniors will let it go>

am i supposed to go to the interview, get the job and refuse to take it unless they pay me more, they would roll on the floor dying in laughter. but the senior guys dont want to negotiate for us for 2 reasons,
1. they went thru crap and want to make us pay our dues
2. they believe they will be gone soon

its a viciouscycle, the pilot proffesion was doomed to fail from the beggining

It is said of some (if not most) pilot groups that the senior pilots will "eat their young" to preserve what they have. In the case with some of the senior pilots at the majors, companies are dangling pilot retirement in front of them (if it hasn't already been thrown away) in order to get what they (management) want, less pay/less bennies/more productivity.

In the case of regional groups, the senior pilots just don't care about the new guy. Maybe it is because the newbies now days get hired with 300 hours and didn't have to earn their flying job by working tooth and nail to get it. I don't know. Or maybe they figure (at some places) that they will be out of there within a couple of years. Not as likely in the pilot job market as it is today.

I know it sounds stupid to aspiring airline pilots, but the pay would only increase if the pilot supply was not there. That means until folks decide not to pursue flying as a "working hobby" then there will always be pilots willing to fly for peanuts. Pilots are dime a dozen and regional airline management folks know that so they pay crap. They know a new guy is willing to accept less than substandard pay for a job that requires a technical skill and more stringent regulation and testing/checking than most other professions.

An example of how a tight job market for pilots would only aid in increasing pilot pay:

American Eagle in their last TA, gave new hire pay a substantial upgrade due to the fact that no one wanted to work there. They needed to do something to make the airline more attractive to new hires, so they increased new hire pay (which still sucks) more than the agreed upon rate that is stated in Eagle’s contract (this is called the IAI calculation if I remember correctly). I don’t think it helped much because most know how fruitless a career at Eagle can be (measured in upgrade/advancement opportunity). So this is an example of what a tight job market could do for all airline pilots, but sadly I don’t think that day will ever come.

directbears
 

DB,

So what was your last day at Eagle like? Were you happy or sad? What was managements response when you told them that you were leaving the profession? Did you have another flying job in mind when you left?

SkyHigh

It was like any other day, except I had to go to the CP office to turn my stuff in. They acted like they cared, but you could tell it was fake. I don't take offense to it though. Just another pilot walking out the door not to return. I think my CP was a little surprised to here that I was getting out of aviation all together though.

As far as being happy or sad, I wasn't either. Really I was kinda relieved. I was relieved that I got out of something that was really starting to affect my personal life. I think that was another reason I got out. Other than the obvious time away from home, I could see it taking its toll on my family because it was affecting how I was. I had poured everything into that career for about 6 1/2 years at Eagle and got nothing back in return really. It started to make me bitter and cynical. I was starting to act and react in ways that I never had before, and again it was taking its toll on my family. I think only an Eagle pilot (or ex-Eagle pilot really) would know what I'm talking about. The culture at AMR is a horrible one. There is never really any good news at that place, and even when they try to give you some good news, they have to follow it up with bad news just to keep everyone in check. Like, "we made great profits for this quarter, but there is still the possibility of losing some flying to our competitors." It got old and tiring.

Sure, I had some opportunities that I passed up that probably would have made a difference in whether or not I would still be flying right now, but I know that I would still have a hard time being away from my family and the constant insecurity that comes with this industry. I could have left Eagle for another flying job, but seeing the state of the industry and seeing the writing on the walls of where it is headed made me not even want to pursue it. I gave myself a goal when I got into the airline industry. I gave myself 5 years to get to a major airline (this was the mid to late 90's) and if it didn't happen I was getting out. Well, I abused myself a little longer than I had planned, but I did follow through and got out.

Do I miss it? Sometimes. I definitely miss flying airplanes. Do I think of giving it another go? Sometimes, but then I think of my family and how it would affect them and once again change the way I am. So, I don't see that in the cards right now.

Sorry to bore everyone, but skyhigh asked so I let loose.

Wow
 

Wow, Thanks for your story. I have an almost identical one. So, what do you do now?

SkyHigh

DB thanks for opening a spot for me :) Actually I would never fly at Eagle after what one guy told me, I feel sad for those academy guys who have to go there because they are the only one that will hire them with such low hours.

Acutally our pay is going to go UP quite alot.

Day
 

Your day will come BT !!!


SkyHigh

I remember my last day at Eagle back in the early 90's...I came in from a trip and took my manuals, ID's, and CR key to the base manager and droped it on his desk and said "Good Bye"...That was about 9am and I was the 5th guy who quit that day...lol...I didn't have a job lined up, but I did have a Graphic Design Company, so cash flow was not an issue...I got hired a month later at a supplemental Airline as a L-1011 FO and was a Captain on a DC-10 a year later for another company...But I have to add that when I was hired at Eagle I was the low time guy in the class with 4000 hours and most of that was Jet time too. I will agree that AMR is a crappy place to work for any extended period of time...Cheers

AHHH YES, paycheck envy strikes again. Guess since you don't make as much as we and probably never will, you want to bring everyone down to your level.

Browntail,

How long have you been at UPS?

I got into IT. Not near as fun as flying, but I feel much more secure and started out with the same pay I was making after 6+ years at the Beagle. It looks like I will be getting a substantial raise after my first year as well. I know money isn't everything, but it is nice to get a good check right off the bat as opposed to busting your a$$ for YEARS before you can make a decent wage.

So what is your story? I believe I've seen posts where you have been furloughed before and got sick of the whole deal. Can't say I blame you. I nearly missed being furloughed at a previous airline job by seeing the writing on the wall there. Unfortunately, I went from one crap hole company to Eagle (a crap hole company). Didn't make up any ground in that transaction. LOL

Good luck and happy living!

Bt
 

Actually you are one of my heroes. It takes quite a lucky SOB to retain the High School snobbish arrogance like you. Most of the rest of us have been kicked to the curb so often that we are all meek reduced figures. I am sure that you are or will become a legendary AH captain.

Really I was just hoping that you would reply. Could you autograph your post for me?

SKyHigh

Flying
 

I have a similar background, business and aviation degree followed by crawling my way up the ladder over 12 years to end up flying a 757 and getting paid less than a mailman. Things are much better now, but I do miss my aviation dream. (the reality was a nightmare)

SkyHigh

I'm also an ex eagle guy. I saw that there was no future in it for all the reasons described in previous posts. Left the job in less than a year and am currently out of aviation as a career. I am pursuing a masters in teaching science. At least I'll start out making 50k (with a secure pension, plus I like to teach) when I am done with school in a year and a half. I don't understand why there are so many people still wanting to take a job that offers just about nothing except the glory of saying "I’m an airline pilot". I too think about going back to flying as I miss it, but it doesn’t take much to remind me of the logical reasons I left. Plus, I don’t have to sleep in a hotel. I still fly light aircraft and instruct for fun and a couple of bucks and kind of laugh in my head when a young guy with big bright eyes says to me "I’m going to be an airline pilot" - I was once like that too. But it is not for me and at least I can say I did it.

All you ex-eagle pilots should get together and sue AMR under emotional distress or something. Every single one of you are bitter and out of aviation. I sincerely believe your thoughts would be different had you choosen somewhere else to go.

I saw my ex-commercial CFI in Toronto one day, I was on OE and this guy was a captain at pinnacle, he had 1000+ hrs TPIC and upgraded in 12 months. Was hired in 2003. He was happy - but most people that end up in the right spot at the right time are :).

Blame
 

Sure, blame it on them. They were the problem. Had we all gotten hired by UAL or SWA at 22 then there would be little reason to have this forum. Life does not happen that way for most. Just pray that you make all the right guesses.

SkyHigh

I'm just saying people know when to cry uncle. For those that trudged through eagle from 2002-2005, you missed some crazy hiring sprees at other airlines (Pinnacle, Chautauqua, XJET, Colgan, Air Wisconsin, Mesa, etc.). I guess I don't understand why'd you would stay there when other companies are hiring, expanding, etc. and you are stagnent.

I've given myself till age 27 to upgrade, if it hasn't happened here I'm leaving for freight for good.

Life is about taking calculated risk not making the right guesses. Indecision has destroyed more than one career, company, life...

Like I said before your goals have to be realistic and match your abilities and age. At 18 the world is and should be yours for the taking! At 33 with a wife and kids - I need to adjust my goals to retirement w/ pension then 121 CA as the long term destination.

Remember Icarus? I try to daily...One can soar high without getting burned...

-LAFF

What or who is ICARUS?

I'm not bitter towards aviation. It just doesn't offer what I require. I'm not going to shuffle back and forth from one crap company to another for crap pay and job insecurity. Aviation jobs today operate by - "Here today, gone tomorrow". However, if (doubtful) one day something in aviation comes along and offers what I require then I will take it - but until then I owe it to myself and my family to secure my future. I am not going to wait until I am 50 to decide I want to retire. Life is an investment and aviation stocks don't look good.

Guessing Game
 

Aviation is more of a guessing game. You can put tons of effort onto choosing what you think will be the best path but only time will tell which companies will grow and which will shrink and fail. Hindsight is 20/20 but on the spot it is impossible to tell who the winning horses are. In the end we all spin the wheel and hope our number comes up.


SkyHigh

Icarus
 

In Greek mythology, Icarus (Latin, Greek Íkaros, Etruscan Vicare, German Ikarus) was the son of Daedalus (Daídalos). He was imprisoned, with his father, in a tower on Crete, by the king, Minos.

The following is an account of the Fall of Icarus as told by Thomas Bulfinch:

Daedalus contrived to make his escape from the prison he was in, but could not leave the island by sea, as the king kept strict watch on all the vessels, and permitted none to sail without being carefully searched. "Minos may control the land and sea," said Daedalus, "but not the regions of the air. I will try that way." So he set to work to fabricate wings for himself and his young son Icarus. He wrought feathers together beginning with the smallest and adding larger, so as to form an increasing surface. The larger ones he secured with thread and the smaller with wax, and gave the whole a gentle curvature like the wings of a bird. Icarus, the boy, stood and looked on, sometimes running to gather up the feathers which the wind had blown away, and then handling the wax and working it over with his fingers, by his play impeding his father in his labors.

When at last the work was done, the artist, waving his wings, found himself buoyed upward and hung suspended, poising himself on the beaten air. He next equipped his son in the same manner, and taught him how to fly, as a bird tempts her young ones from the lofty nest into the air. When all was prepared for flight, he said, "Icarus, my son, I charge you to keep at a moderate height, for if you fly too low the damp will clog your wings, and if too high the heat will melt them. Keep near me and you will be safe." While he gave him these instructions and fitted the wings to his shoulders, the face of the father was wet with tears, and his hands trembled. He kissed the boy, not knowing that it was for the last time. Then rising on his wings he flew off, encouraging him to follow, and looked back from his own flight to see how his son managed his wings. As they flew the ploughman stopped his work to gaze, and the shepherd leaned on his staff and watched them, astonished at the sight, and thinking they were gods who could thus cleave the air.

They passed Samos and Delos on the left and Lebynthos on the right, then the boy, exulting in his career, began to leave the guidance of his companion and soar upward as if to reach heaven. The nearness of the blazing sun softened the wax which held the feathers together, and they came off. He fluttered with his arms, but no feathers remained to hold the air. While his mouth uttered cries to his father, it was submerged in the blue waters of the sea, which thenceforth was called by his name. His father cried, "Icarus, Icarus, where are you?" At last he saw the feathers floating on the water, and bitterly lamenting his own arts, he buried the body and called the land Icaria in memory of his child. Daedalus arrived safe in Sicily, where he built a temple to Apollo, and hung up his wings, an offering to the god.