Do I meet ATP requirements?
 

First off, I'm new to these forums so I wanted to say hi and thanks to everybody for all the knowledge that is being passed around.

I realize this may not be the place for this question, but I figured alot of guys get their ATPs while the are building time at regionals so you guys might know.

I got a job as a SIC in a King Air 100 flying scheduled 135 operations at 300TT. I recently upgraded (transitioned?) to a 1900 (same company). I've got around 850 TT, 480 ME, 450 Turbine, 425 SIC and only 275 PIC. I would like to stay with my current company, get my ATP and get some turbine PIC time. Here's the catch:

The FARs specify basic TT, night, instrument XC and PIC requirements which I will have. However there is a subsection that I don't fully understand:


61.159

(d) An applicant may be issued an airline transport pilot certificate with the endorsement, “Holder does not meet the pilot in command aeronautical experience requirements of ICAO,” as prescribed by Article 39 of the Convention on International Civil Aviation, if the applicant:

(1) Credits second-in-command or flight-engineer time under paragraph (c) of this section toward the 1,500 hours total flight time requirement of paragraph (a) of this section;

(2) Does not have at least 1,200 hours of flight time as a pilot, including no more than 50 percent of his or her second-in-command time and none of his or her flight-engineer time; and

(3) Otherwise meets the requirements of paragraph (a) of this section.

(e) When the applicant specified in paragraph (d) of this section presents satisfactory evidence of the accumulation of 1,200 hours of flight time as a pilot including no more than 50 percent of his or her second-in-command flight time and none of his or her flight-engineer time, the applicant is entitled to an airline transport pilot certificate without the endorsement prescribed in that paragraph.


I figure when I reach the magical 1500 TT I'll have around 1000 hours of SIC time. It seems a descent number of guys at regionals probably get a lot of their time as SICs. How do they get their ATPs? Will I be eligible? I've thought of going to a jet regional, but after talking to a lot of people and reading threads on this site it seems that PIC turboprop, although in a KIng Air, is still more valuable than SIC jet.

Any thoughts?

sorry of topic, but how did you get the job with 300tt? Who is it with?
Thats pretty cool

edik

Actually that's pretty dangerous.

Ok, This is how I interpet this. You will have a restiction on your ATP if;

more than 50 percent of the 1200hrs is SIC time. I understand you need 1500tt but at least 1200 needs to be flight time as a pilot. The rest could be FE time. So out of that 1200hrs no more than half of that or 600hrs may be SIC time or you will have a restriction on your ATP. Hope I got that right, if not anyone that knows better please clarify or correct away.

Hey, Browntail

Wanna here a good one, flew with this guy who got his PVT in DEC and is now a CFI working at ATP towards the magical 500hrs for the RJ job. Did pretty much all weekend courses with the exception of the PVT. Did the 14day CFI course at ATP. Really is a kick in the A** because took me several years to attain my ratings and I am still instructing, now sure as hell he'll be flying an RJ before me. Though I am starting to lean more towards corporate now but, it is still crazy.

Okay man, what ever you say. Its only beech 100, its not like he is jumping in a 757. All he did was probably do the radio work and navigation for the first 100 hrs or so. Also there are over sea airlines that hire into jet (SIC 747/777/343). If i had a chance to get that job, i would jump on it, i highly doubt it that the compnay would let him fly the plane to the mins when he was first hire.

edik

I worked as a line guy for a year. The company gave interview to the line guys who qualified. They didn't give jobs to all of us. There were a few hired that you could categorize as dangerous, however even after 700 hours with the company I think they're still more dangerous than some of the new guys coming in with low time. It really depends on the person, but I agree that 300TT is relatively low.

To be quite honest, we did start alternating legs from the beginning. Personally, I think the harder of the two roles early on was being the PNF. Acting as PF was easy. It was just like flying a Beech Duchess. Except the airspeed was faster and you had your PNF doing all the dirty work.

But this is all stuff for another thread I suppose

"Bitter, party of 1"
 

So the kid got his ratings quicker than you. Big deal. I know guys that graduated college in 3 years and got a job one year earlier than me... big deal.

Are you saying the kid is a bad pilot? In flying, profiency is huge... of he went straight through, I would think he is pretty on the ball.

We all "do our time to get to a better place... some people just have the luxury/money to do it faster. What is wrong with that?

Back to the original topic... the simple answer is that I dunno. I think the key words there are "may" and "ICAO".

I obtained my ATP under a part 142 program (CRJ type rating), but not with an airline (I was furloughed and used some grant money to get both ATP & Type). When I took the ride, I had an in-house examiner that signed me off. At the time I had 3800TT, 3157ME, 3070Turbine (CRJ), 3205 XC, and only 575 PIC (3044 SIC). I didn't have a limitation.

Even if you do have the limitation, it really doesn't affect anything you can or can't do, it just states that you didn't meet ICAO minimums when you applied for the certificate.

The important thing regarding SIC time and the ATP certificate, is that ALL SIC time counts towards the 1500 TT as long as the airplane requires two pilots and it was conducted under 121 or 135 ops.

Here is a link to the FAA examiners manual which puts the regs into more easily understood language:

http://www.faa.gov/library/manuals/e...5/5_002_01.pdf


A. Total Pilot Flight Hours. A minimum of 1,500
total pilot flight hours must have been accumulated by
the applicant. The following types of flight experience
may be credited toward the total pilot flight hour
requirement:
• All pilot-in-command (PIC) hours
• All dual instruction received by the applicant
• All flight time acquired as a second-in-command
(SIC) in aircraft requiring at least two pilots by
the approved airplane flight manual (AFM), airworthiness
certificate, or in FAR Part 121 or 135
operations
• For commercial pilots, up to 500 hours of flight
engineer (FE) time acquired in FAR Part 121
operations (The FE time must have been
acquired in an airplane requiring an FE. While
acquiring these hours, the applicant must have
held a commercial pilot certificate and been participating
as a pilot or FE in a FAR Part 121
approved pilot training program. FE time may be
credited at a rate of 1 hour of pilot time for each 3
hours of FE time. For example, if the applicant
has accumulated 300 hours of FE time, 100 hours
may be credited toward the 1,500 total pilot hour
requirement.)

B. Hours as PIC. The applicant must have accumulated
at least 250 hours an PIC. SIC hours acquired while
performing the duties of PIC under the supervision of a
qualified PIC may be credited toward this requirement.

C. Hours of Cross-Country. At least 500 flight hours
must have been accumulated as a pilot in cross-country
flight. Cross-country time is that time acquired during
flight from a departure point to a destination point that is
not the same as the departure point. It is also time
acquired in a flight that is cross-country in nature even
though the departure and destination points are the same
(such as forestry patrol).

D. Hours of PIC Cross-Country. At least 100 flight
hours must have been accumulated as PIC while conducting
cross-country flight. SIC hours while performing the
duties of PIC under the supervision of a qualified PIC
may be credited toward this requirement.

E. Hours at Night. At least 100 hours must have been
accumulated as a pilot at night. An applicant who has
made over 20 night landings may thereafter substitute one
additional night takeoff and landing to a full stop for 1
hour of nighttime.

F. Hours as PIC at Night. At least 25 hours must have
been accumulated as a PIC at night. SIC hours while performing
the duties of PIC under the supervision of a qualified
PIC may be credited toward this requirement.

G. Instrument Hours. At least 75 hours must have
been accumulated as a pilot in actual or simulated instrument
conditions. Fifty hours of this time must have been
in actual flight

Just to clarify that, SIC counts if either the aircraft certification or AFM requires it (IE must have two crewmembers), OR if the SIC time was logged in part 121 or 135 ops.

Part 91 SIC time in an aircraft requiring two pilots will count as well.

~J

Ah yes, good catch...thanks!

With regard to that whole ICAO minimum thing: I believe that has to do with being able, with the blessing of the ICAO, to operate a commercial aircraft internationally. I believe thats why most (if not all) regional carriers require that pilots have 3000TT before they allow a captain upgrade, because otherwise the company can't let u fly an international flight. You can command that CRJ domestically with just the ATP mins and type rating, but you can't fly it over the border into Canada, for example.

If any of that was incorrect, let me know.

So doing some research, I stumbled on this...

The above statement would not work for all of the FO's hired with low time. They would still have the restriction right? Half or more of their time would be SIC.

What is the take on this now?

Low time FO's can meet most of the ICAO PIC by acquiring 121 or 135 SIC, for which they get a one-for-two credit towards the ICAO PIC requirement.

For the original poster, 91 SIC time would not work, you would need 121/135 SIC time for ICAO credit or actual PIC of any sort.

An airline-specific requirement that you have more than 1500 hours has nothing to do with ICAO, it is just that airline's preference (which is sensible).

Mesa used to have a 2500 hour requirement, but they dropped that to 1500 real quick when they got short-handed.

You meet ICAO requirements with 1500 hours TT, as long as you also have the PIC...doesn't matter where you got it.

No, that's backwards. The wording of the regs is poor but here's what they really mean.

For ICAO ATP privileges you need:

Everything you need for a US ATP

AND

1200 hours PIC (of any sort)

OR

You can count 50% of your 121/135 SIC towards the 1200.


This means theoretically with 2400 hours 121/135 SIC you no longer need the 1200 SIC for ICAO purposes. If you have 1000 hours 121/135 SIC, you could reduce the 1200 by 500, so you would need 700 hours PIC for ICAO.

You still need 250 hours PIC, since that is a US requirement (although there is way to meet that with 121 SIC time too).

If a 121 FO has exactly 250 hours PIC he still needs 950 for ICAO. He can get one-for-two credit from his 121 SIC so he still need 1900 hours 121 (or 135) SIC.

AHH not exactly. Where does it say you get one-for-two credit towards this?

Why are we digging up a 3+ year old thread?!?

E. Hours at Night. At least 100 hours must have been
accumulated as a pilot at night. An applicant who has
made over 20 night landings may thereafter substitute one
additional night takeoff and landing to a full stop for 1
hour of nighttime.


Am I reading this correctly? 100 hours night. However, after 20 landings, each landing after that may count as 1 hour of night? So someone could just go do a bunch of landings in a few hours(assuming they already have the 25 PIC) and call it a day?(or a night=O) Also, is the same wording in the 135 mins?

Sorry guys, I didn't want to type out the whole reg so grab your FAR/AIM. :D

Part 61-
61.159, section (e) say the one for two credit.
But Rick, it says 1200TT not PIC and section (e) just addresses how to get the restriction removed from section (d). So under ICAO standards you need 1200TT BUT SIC time (under 121/135 ops) cannot count 1 for 1 towards that 1200TT, it count 2 for 1. 2hrs SIC = 1hr TT.

But can someone clear up this part....The 250 PIC time still stands but there reg in there that says if you don't have the 250 PIC time then you need 100hrs of cross country time and at least 25 of that must be at night. (61.159)(a)(4)(i)(ii) :confused:

How can anyone not have 250 PIC??? Even if you just get all your ratings with CFI and MEI you should have close if not more then 250 PIC. Other than your single and multi rating, everything you got after that should have been dual received/PIC time.

Sorry guys, I didn't want to type out the whole reg so grab your FAR/AIM.

I think this thread has been re-born with the possibility of all Fo's requiring their ATP to work 121.

My question is with the 250 pic requirement. and the clause that has to do with PIC under supervision. What does that exactly mean? How do you act as PIC without a type-rating even if you are under-supervision?

It did say under SIC 121/135 ops I think, so I am guessing your CA is always supervising you???? :confused: I think that part is just a way for a 121/135 FO to get the PIC CREDIT. So you are getting PIC credit even though you are not typed, in a way it is like how you could long actual time (when you where in the clouds) when you were getting your instrument rating. Because you are benefiting off your CFII's certificate, so this would kind of be you getting the credit off your CA's ATP? I dunno, that is just want it seems like to me.

I hate REGS.... the way they are written is too hard to understand. Pretty much gibberish.

NO! You do not get PIC credit while actting as SIC. You are not performing the duties of PIC as SIC. This refers to SPIC or Supervised PIC like if you were getting a commercial multi liscense with having a single commercial to begin with. This DOES NOT APPLY TO A 121 FO. We are acting as SIC and SIC only. dont kid yourself.

An SIC cannot log PIC for these purposes.

But if agreed to in advance, the PIC can allow the SIC to "perform the duties of PIC", and log SIC time with remarks to that effect.

This time is NOT PIC by any means and cannot be logged as such, but it is SIC which you can substitute for the FAA ATP 250 hour PIC requirement.

This is nothing new, it used to be done all the time at mesa since many of their FO's were MAPD with 200 hour COMM AMEL (and not all of that was PIC). They had to do it to upgrade.

Um... 1st... relax... I never said you can LOG it as PIC... if that was what you think I meant, then sorry no it wasn't. I just simply said it sounded like that REG will give you PIC credit if you met those criteria that's all. My logbook for my FO time is logged as SIC nothing more.

If this actualy happened there needs to be a review of mesa pilot records. this is obsurd. Those guys actualy went out and paid for cessna time to get to the PIC requirement.

You sound REAL NEW to these forums with +500 posts!!

Notice that the original post originates from the year 2006. ;)

What? Dangerous is sitting in the right seat of a 121 jet aircraft at 300 hours. "SIC" on a king air is a good place to learn as you are not really a required crew member since the king air 100 is a single pilot aircraft. You'll learn a lot more there than you will making endless trips around the patch in a 172.

OOPS! Missed that.

I never said I agree with the loophole, but it is legal. Yes, some guys did rent cessna's too.

The only thing which might prevent someone fro using this provision would be if their company did not approve of allowing the SIC to fulfill the duties of PIC. You also need CA willing to do it.