Rest - Who's Responsible?
 

When I had 10 duty free days per month at the airlines I didn't see them as 10 days off when I had to cross the country between home and base.

The 10 days duty free days became 5 or 6 days off at home when I subtracted out the commute.

Year 1, I would commute the day before my show time and spend the night with ear plugs in and sleep mask over my eyes (resting) in a crash pad that made europe's worst hostels look and smell like 5 star hotels.

If anyone else was there, I'd set the alarm 1/2 hour earlier to avoid the morning bathroom/shower wait. Sometimes when that wouldn't work, I would have to do the Tom Hanks 'Terminal' kitchen sink shower&shave.

Year 2 and beyond, I would commute the day before my show time and spend the night with ear plugs in and sleep mask over my eyes (resting) in a crash pad that smelled a little better.

My point: Rest - Who's Responsible?

§ 91.3 Responsibility and authority of the pilot in command.

(a) The pilot in command of an aircraft is directly responsible for, and is the final authority as to, the operation of that aircraft.

121.471 has joint responsibility.

Was I doing my part???

91 wins. The PIC is responsible.

Now if you ask if you could get fired for following 91.3 and calling off a flight because you couldn't get a good night's sleep. You sure can.

Part 121 is regulating the Airline, not the Airline Pilot. 121.471 only limits what your company can make you do. And by extension exactly what they will demand of you. It's PIC's job to ensure that the crew is really rested not the 121 definition of rest.

The company could care less however, it's your responsibility to fly ACTUALY rested (IM SAFE), not "Legaly" rested (121.471). How you manage to do that is concidered your own problem.

Who is responsible?

Everybody.

Count on some changes to check-in procedures.

The pilot (PIC or SIC) is responsible for ensuring that they meet Part 67 "fitness for flight" and it's a shared responsibility under Part 121 in terms of required rest in between duty periods.

I think the "I have to commute because I can't afford to live in domicile" argument is DOA when set against the regulations. A pilot's responsibility is clearly defined, although the definition exists in an untenable work environment for many.

Also consider that most airline pilots are not true "at will employees" because they are covered under a CBA. A pilot can quit for any reason, or no reason at all - but the reverse may not be true for the employer wanting to terminate a covered pilot. Airlines will likly exploit this and suggest "if it's so bad, why do you do it?"

When the latest pilot rest issue comes to head, it's going to be easy for airline lawyers to quote chapter and verse of the existing regs and claim them adequate (ie. no additional expense or scheduling burden). I think the focus will again shift to the pilot, and force commuting pilot's hands to wheather the glamour of an airline career is worth it.

I hope I'm wrong.

So on an 8 hour overnight with a 30+ minute van ride, is the company sharing any responsibility to ensure the crew members are rested?

First, I want to make clear I'm on the side of labor - I'm just playing devil's advocate.

To answer your question; 8 hours free from duty is the reg. so yes the company is meeting the requirements of the reg. Is it safe, you and I both know the answer to that.

So the answer is as a union, negotiate "8 hours behind the door" clause (or more) into the contract. As an individual, it's uncomfortable to stop or delay the operation if your not fit to fly - but sometimes it's the right thing to do.

It's the reg, but it doesn't in ANY way mean the company is actually taking it's part on responsibility.

If they were being responsible, the MEC/NC wouldn't have to negotiate a minimum time behind the door, the company would be responsible and grant it. Then the burden would solely lie with the crew member that they properly managed a reasonable amount of time behind the door.

We could go round and round about the economic impact this would have on the airlines and how we'll never see it change till more people die.

Bingo. I support 100% the fact that as professionals we have the responsibility on our end to make sure we maximize our rest; that being said when the company schedules an 8 hr overnight with a 45 min. van ride, you end up with 4 to 5 hours of sleep.

All studies point to two key figures:

1) 16 hours time since awake - which means that by all measured studies after 16 hours of being awake most subject's performance was significantly degraded.

2) The average subject needs 5 hours of sleep minimum to function, anything under 5 hours becomes sleep deprivation and also degrades performance.

Make of it what you will, but the fatigue factor has to be addressed from all angles, not just the pilots.

Don't doubt the survey one bit. I'm curious if they were to take it further, or if the information is out there. How long can the subject adequately function on that 5 hours of sleep? I doubt it's anything past 8 hours.

I know I've had the typical 5 hours of sleep, been able to function just fine on that 2ish hour flight to the hub. But as soon as I sit down on that 2-3 hour sit, it becomes a struggle for the remaining 8-9 hours of duty.

Dr. Tom Nesthus of the Civil Aerospace Medical Institute division of the Federal Aviation Administration testified on Wednesday (to the NTSB) that his research showed:

• less than 8 hours of sleep is “an acute sleep debt”.
• going “more than 17 hours without sleep produces a degradation in performance”.

(The quotes are his actual words, the rest is my paraphrasing. I'm a pilot, not a court reporter - I can't type quickly.)

Where do your 16 and 5 hour #'s come from? Not debating you, just looking to read more research on the issue.:)

How does the government expect this industry to function properly when our legal rest requirements are more relaxed than many other professions like subway drivers or truck drivers? Commuting is an inevitable thing in the airline world; with the way airlines change crew bases, no one can reasonably expect someone to pick up and move once or twice a year. What kind of life is that? Commuting works, putting in a 14-15 hour day with reduced rest that night does not. Personally, I believe that minimum rest period from duty end until morning report should be 12 hours so we can actually get closer to 8 hours of sleep.

Responsible for what?

Airline 101 teaches us that management views labor as a unit cost that must be reduced to the absolute minimum. In most airlines, pilots are a liability in the eyes of management, not an asset (no matter what that glad-handing exec tells you). A management's responsibility is to the shareholders and part of that is keeping unit costs (ie. YOU) as cheap as they can.

I understand what you're saying, I've lived it too, but it's very very rare for any management to claim a moral responsibility. The responsibility is to the shareholders, and you are a unit cost that must be lowered.

So when we talk about responsibility, we're talking about a shared legal responsibility to observe current FARs. A corporation is a non-living, non-breathing entity that only exists on paper and is therefore incapable of embracing a human concept like morals.

Morals are a human trait that would have to be embraced by airline CEOs, the Board, and shareholders to make meaninful change in crew rest rules - and we all know how that's going.

I'm afraid that unions will have to negociate a better, safer, contract or have new regulations forced upon the airlines for any real change to take place.

Both the FAA and Europeans had an Aviation Fatigue Symposium a while back, the figures came from a circular that was put out at the time, but mind you the studies used were from multiple shift work professions (truck drivers, doctors, and few crews), I believe an aviation tailored study may be closer to 17 and 8 as you said (I didn't get a chance to read today's testimony).

I will find and post the link as soon as I have them, all I have is a copy of the circular.

Not sure where the disconnect is;

If the company went by a more restrictive "rest" policy than the current FAR's, responsibility would be on the crew member, NOT the company.

Not sure why you're wasting your time telling me this.

After 6 base closures, being downgraded twice, furloughed once, taking my 4th involuntary pay cut, I ALREADY figured this crap out a long time ago.

See above. But think about this, Colgan just proved what happens when the unit cost is driven to the lowest possible numbers.

We're gonna end up talking in circles. We've already covered that the company is only interested in doing what's legal, not taking any responsibility.

Yep, the unions are going to have to step up to the plate. The problem is one we've seen over, and over, and over again in (insert negotiation) here. Pilots are too divided, and money (compensation) will always win on the give and take that occurs come contract time.

Just clarifying legal responsibility vs. moral responsibility.


Yep, we're going to have to work hard to realize that we're in agreement - I completely agree with your points. I'm only throwing out the contrary opinion for the sake of discussion.

Cheers-

You guys are forgetting that this is Colgan's problem. Unless there are FAA changes which are HIGHLY unlikely, nothing will come of this accident for the rest of us. Because fundamentaly the regulations in the eyes of the FAA are designed to reduce pilot fatique. The faa is not resonsible if you want to commute from Seattle on the back of cargo planes to report for duty in the AM in Newark, NJ. I can think of other pilot error/fatigue cases where nothing was done about it. Comair in KY comes to mind. Unfortunately this accident will screw us more then help us. Too many mistakes and carelessness by the pilots in the accident chain. Expect more abuse and harder FAA enforcement. Maybe even commuting restrictions or at least checking in procedures.

If you saw the Colgan hearing, there was a question about what Colgan did after the accident to help reduce or make the pilots aware of the problems like fatigue and company procedures. They answered we sent them memos..... on rest and reporting regulations......

The responsibility rests on the shoulders of the crew member. Think about it… at the end of the day… is it the airlines’, FAA’s, or NTSB’s business where a crewmember chooses to reside? Their only concern should be that the crewmember be well rested prior for duty. Like some foreign carriers, US carriers may require crew members to check in with the company between 18 to 24 hours before the actual scheduled time of actual report or departure confirming they are in residence at their base city. Will the airline be required to bare the expense of either a hotel room or crash pad for the commuter? No… as your base is your pseudo home.

Here’s the airlines’ spin on terms and conditions. All employees knew the pay and benefits schedules when interviewing. Base assignments are usually known during initial training. During basic indoctrination, the instructor pointed out that the use crew room as a rest area prohibited. Instructors warned about the evils of long distance commutes. The subject of crash pads came up during training.

It is clear the 8 hour rest rule does not work considering the time it takes to get from the jet to the hotel room… and back to the jet. It’s time for the FAA to step in to reduce the number of sectors that can be flown by a crew in one day. It is clear that the Duty Limitation must be reduced if the number of scheduled sectors exceeds a fixed number. Perhaps it’s time for the FAA to look across the Atlantic concerning duty and rest periods that EASA (the creation from JAA) has adopted. It is clear that the airlines have to create in a benefit package for hotel accommodations so crews won’t have to commute cross country all night and strap the jet to their backs and work another 12 hours. And yes… starting wages need to be increased. But equally it is the responsibility for the airman to recapture their respect and walk away from substandard conditions without reserve. Remember… airplanes don’t fly by themselves.

Everyone on this thread has made some excellent points. I have mentioned some of these points on Regional safety thread. The FAA has been in bed with the airline management way TOO LONG. How can you expect pilots to be well rested and fresh if they have overnights that are less than 10 hours? By the time all passengers are off the plane and you have written up the airplane for MX, walk the long terminal to the Hotel Van shuttle pickup point, wait 30 to 45 minutes for the van to arrive, 15 to 35 minute van ride to the Hotel because the management is too cheap to give you hotels that are nicer and much closer to the airport, after ALL THIS, you are lucky if you get 5 to 6 hour sleep. That is if you are the type who can fall asleep right away.

And this problem is compounded on your first day if you commute in that morning or on your last day of the 4 or 5 day trip when 2 or 3 of your days had less than 10 hour overlays.

The concensus of the majority of pilots on this thread is that the following changes are needed and LONG overdue.

One, the pilot pay needs to be increased for sure.
Two, someone said the Airline should provide for a hotel room for the night before a trip especially if that trip has a report time of 8 am or earlier like 6am.
Three, any time pilot is on duty longer than 12 hours in one day he should be paid overtime.
Four, there should be no overnights less than 10 hours. Better yet 12 hours as DiverDriver suggested.
Five, positive space ride on flights to and from work.
Six, this one is directly related to the first point regarding the need to increase pilot pay, all pilots flying under the same banner, ie., DAL flights or UAL flights should be done by pilots under the same seniority list. Take a look at Air Canada, Lufthansa, British Airways. All their pilots whether they fly CRJ900 or B777 are under the same seniority list.
Seven, junior pilots interest needs better representation by the Union. A good example is at XJ, the union reps turned down the offer, get this, from the MANAGEMENT, of all people, to actually increase pay for XJ first year FOs and guess what? the Union reps turned the XJ management down because they said it will not benefit all pilots. These are same guys who actually screwed over the senior guys at XJ when they negotiated their Flowthru program that will benefit their group the most (10 to 15 year longevity at XJ).

Think these are impossible to achieve, think again. Emirates provides limo rides to and from the airport for their pilots in addition to providing free housing to all their pilots.

PIC, other professionals work 12 hour shifts and if they choose to buy a home with a 2 hour commute to work, they pay as well.

If they choose not to manage personal time to allow rest, that's a choice they make.

While we can argue management's culpability for creating untenable schedules by trying to do too much with too few crewmembers, remember that it is ALWAYS the crewmember's responsibility that they be fit for duty; FAR 61.53, Part 67, the back of your medical certificate, and very likely somewhere in your FOM says as much.

If you are fatigued or sick, don't fly - you have a responsibility to yourself, your fellow crewmembers, and your passengers...to say nothing of the FARs. Believe me, I know its easier said than done...

For sure if you ARE sick or fatigued, you owe it to yourself to call in sick, but how many time do you think you can call in sick in a given 12 month period and still be employed? Seriously, look at Compass, JetBlue and others where pilots have been fired for calling in sick too often. How often is too often? That is up to the management isn't it? Many pilots even when they are exhausted continue to fly and finish the trip especially if they have already called in sick two or three time within the
previous 12 months. And I am not just referring to Regional pilots. This happens to Major, Cargo pilots also.

It is crew responsibility to work within a known and legally derived schedule. Until the legally part is changed, there will be no working around the individual's responsibility in this. I am all for changing the legal bare minimum rest requirement to 10 hrs and reasonable van rides during lay overs.

Yes it is...and I think that the FAA needs to forcefully address airlines that discipline pilots for following the FARs (and likely, their own company manuals in regards to 'airworthiness'). The "reliability policy" is nothing more than a way to threaten pilots to work when deficient.

The downside, however, is that there are pilots out there who abuse sick time, gaming the system and creating headaches for those who genuinely aren't able to perform their duties.

As a scheduling committee rep in a former life, my own personal inclination is for non-punitive measures for pilots who call out sick (especially probationary pilots)...but I do think more than 6 sick calls in a rolling 12 month period requires further investigation and medical consultation (non-punitive and company-paid, of course) to see if one has a chronic condition that could affect airworthiness, or simply that they have kids and the kids are bringing home colds & flu more often than a single guy would be exposed to.

Knew the pay and benefits, didn't know that 4 domiciles would open and close in my first 4 years of doing the job.

As far as instructors warning about commutes, you DO KNOW that many instructors commute themselves, don't you?

I agree that employees know the pay and benefits but flight crews do NOT know how many times scheduling will change your schedule or how many times a CP will "enact" their will on operational issues that directly affect duty times.

I agree that this will raise eyebrows at most but here's hoping that some minor duty times will be changed. The FAA has dismissed NTSB and expert testimony for far, far too long and then they wonder why there are problems.