Pilot Minimum Wage
 

I have done a search but could not find anything about a pilot minimum wage.

It seems that the only way airlines compete in today’s marketplace and stay in business is by offering the cheapest price, thus encouraging outsourcing. These outsourced regional airlines compete by offering the lowest price. They get low prices by hiring inexperienced pilots who will fly for less, they pay the pilots less, fly cheaper airplanes and a lot of them have outsourced training, which is cheaper. These airlines overwork the pilots, and underpay them. I do not mean to insult my fellow regional pilots, but a lot of us are more inexperienced compared to our mainline counterparts; for example we lack PIC turbine time. At some regionals, when the seniority list gets too senior the price becomes too high and they start another airline where the labor costs are lower.

I don’t feel that total regulation is the answer to the airline industry’s woes. Frankly, the government does not have the resources to fight two wars, regulate the banks, regulate the auto industry, regulate the health care industry, and regulate the aviation industry. If we were to have a pilot’s minimum wage airlines could not compete on the price of labor, the price of the ticket would be reflected in the level of service, the frequency of flights, or any other way an airline can separate itself from the competition. It is about time that the labor groups quit carrying the weight of the airlines on their shoulders.

Although this is not perfect, this is a starting point. I propose that we have 4 different classes of airplanes. Pilots would be paid according to the number of seats and would see an hourly pay scale based on the number of seats.


Typical Pay Scale
Small Category (1-50) Captain 150% First Officer 100%
Example: Emb 145 Seating Capacity: 45 Seats
Ca: 67 FO: 45

Medium Category (50-90) Captain 140% First Officer 100%
Example: Emb 170 Seating Capacity 70
Ca: 98 FO: 70

Medium Large (90-200) Captain 110% First Officer 95%
Example: B757 Seating Capacity 200
Ca: 220 FO: 190

Large (200+) Captain 100% First Officer 85%
Example: B777 Seating Capacity 330
Ca: 330 FO: 280

Now this is not a perfect pay scale, but just a start. This would increase the price of a ticket but not by very much. For example; an 8 hour international flight would be less than 2 dollars per hour per seat per hour. This translates to roughly 16 dollars per seat increase for a ticket that runs around a thousand dollars. Now this would be more expensive from a regionals standpoint but the current wages that they offer are a joke, and maybe it would result in more mainline flying.

I think at this point in the economy, the customers who are flying, have to fly, and will continue to fly regardless of a minor increase in the price of a ticket. If they cannot afford a ticket, they can drive or ride on Greyhound or Amtrak. If an airline can offer a lower price, it is doing it because it has a better business model, not because they are breaking the backs of its employees.


Each airline would have to negotiate an increase in pay rate for seniority beyond the minimum wage with its pilots, but that is up to the airline. If they appreciate their employee’s hard work and dedication they can pay them more, but not less. Let’s do away with the undercutting based on employee compensation which has done nothing but bring this industry to its knees.

Sorry for these poorly written paragraphs, but I was curious if this idea has been discussed or would be something to work towards.

I strongly disagree with your first paragraph and frankly some of it is not true. The other parts will never happen, there is no hope for this industry. The only solution will have to be consolidations or BKs. There are too many competitors to make any money. Pilots are part of the problem as well.

Just to play devil’s advocate here. Let’s say that you have 2 airlines flying four sector days on a four day trip. In fact both crews are staying at the same hotel and taking the same hotel van to and from all airports during the four day period. Airline “A”, a regional carrier operates an RJ that seats about 100 passengers. Airline “B “, a major carrier operates a Boeing 737-500 that seats about 122 passengers. Both crews perform the same tasks during the day. Both crews are scheduled for an 11 hour duty day in the northeast during winter operations. Is it fair to say that both crews deserve the same pay since they are performing the same tasks? Should the crew of the 737 earn more pay since their aircraft, because it’s a Boeing?

Air Willie- I can't speak for your airline, it was a more broad view of the industry as a whole, pointing out some of the flaws. I feel that legacy airlines have relied on regionals to keep the costs as low as possible.

Captjns-it is not a perfect pay scale, but I feel that pay should reflect the size aircraft you fly. The more seats, the better the pay. There are different categories which feature different percentages to help with the size diffence. It has nothing to do with it being manufactured in Brazil or the US. A 777 captain should make more than a 737 captain.

capitalism.

Pilots willing to work for low wages=low wages getting paid.

Walmart ruthlessly cuts costs and fosters relentless undercutting and whipsawing of their suppliers. The result is people in Asia work 14 hour days for pennys an hour. America gets cheap stuff, and we by it by the truckload.

No difference in aviation.

Should Chinese manufacturers make as much money doing the same job as US workers?

That is loaded question and has far more ramifications than you think.

Who is CREATING the labor? Colgan, TSA, PSA, et al, are all nameless in the eyes of the passengers. Regional flying is outsourced. In many regards, if the outsourcing didn't exist to lower the costs, the flying wouldn't exist (wouldn't be profitable any other way). If something goes wrong on a regional - its the mainline that suffers the negative repute. Regionals are interchangable substitutes for each other. We are dropped into existing slots bearing their name brand.

The world is full of inequalities when it comes to pay and it will always be that way. Those who are in control of the money will dictate the pay of the lower ranks, with a selfish bias. It is up to each of us as individuals to structure our lives in a way to provide maximum vertical growth in a flawed (probably the best, though - i.e. capitalism) system. If that involves removing ourselves from the industry, then that may very well be the best choice.

Those who choose to stay will either find comfort in the higher ranks in time (after all, some WILL make it to the top) or will live forever in an RJ cockpit making "decent" money after a few years, but never any more. The new 1st years (2nd too) will always make crap. Generally speaking, new RJ hires are interns regardless of the size of their egos or how similar they regard their skills to Mr. Hoover's. We all value the benefit of experience, no one will disregard that. New hires (again, generally speaking) lack this experience.

You don't like capitalism. What economic model do you like?

I personally think capitalism and airlines only work well together in the areas where sufficient regulations have been imposed on 'how low we can go'.

I'm pretty sure theres plenty of management types out there who would have 'no serious concerns' about us trucking people around all day long with a missing tire, single pilot, on 5 hours total rest.

So with respect to wages - maybe we do need to look at puting a floor in.

We didn't invent outsourcing, but we've also never done anything to stop it. In fact you could even say that scope, just helps perpetuate outsourcing, by allowing flying to be done by companies that have time builders in both seats. I know some people will feel like I'm insulting them, and I definitely never want to p*** on someone's grave, but I don't think there should ever be a left seater in a 121 operation with less than 10,000 hours of flight time. I know that numbers are arbitrary, and there are low time pilots with stick and rudder skills, and mature judgement, and there are high time pilots who've crashed airplanes, but with experience comes the awareness of all that there is out there that you still don't know and haven't yet seen. I know that I have much more awareness of my own limitations now than ten years ago, when I was ******* hot 6000 hour jet captain, and I still don't consider myself to have reached some mythical high plateau of ability. There really is a lot of experience out there, and if companies were required to pay for it, it might help stop the race for the gutter that is dragging our very profession with it.

This is in the public eye today, but will be forgotten tommorrow, until the next tragedy...

Sorry if I've offended anyone. I'm not saying that anyone doesn't belong in the industry. All of us in the bottom half of the experience spectrum (myself included) should be sitting to the right of someone in the top half, in a profession that truly values the lives of its customers over the conrtactor with the lowest bid.

Pilots are the biggest part of the problem. When we come out of flight instructing or flying checks, we are willing to take a jet position anywhere for any amount of money, some will even a jet for free...... Why?? "Because I need the turbine time for the majors".... We do it to ourselves, and the regionals exploit that

3XLoser's idea of requiring 10,000 hours to sit left seat will make that necessity for flight time worse, further driving down wages. But, OTOH, I cannot disagree with his premise.

Catch 22.... :D

Good point Bryrus. I would just like to eliminate the reality that we have two distinct tiers in the industry, and management's assumption that they can abuse those in the bottom tier. Just because you're in the right seat, doesn't mean you're just a time builder. I'm happy to sit in the right seat for a job with respectable pay and quality of life. Unfortunately, we presently have a situation that just continues to degrade the profession for all of us. Not to mention a situation where we have someone who just checked out on the left, and someone who's never seen winter on the right.

We as pilots need some way to get away from the "I'm just here to build time" mentality. Many have suggested that regionals would become career jobs for many pilots with the continued outsourcing of the major's flying. That would then force the pilots into insisting on more pay as they will be stuck at places like ExpressJet, Colgan, Eagle, etc. Then again, that would just aggravate the problem of under-cutting for work that all regionals now have to do to stay viable.

Anyway, I have no solution, unfortunately, on how we can get young pilots not to take these dangerously awful jobs just to build the time. Any thoughts?

Correct, entirely agree with you..... Some regional pilots don't care how much they make, or what over-time pay is...... They don't care about that because. " I'll be moving on, so who cares"..... That was my mentallity when I was at the regionals, I figure soon I'd get a kick ass corporate job, maybe flying a G-V or a Global Express, and leave the regional life behind me, so who cares what they pay me. I SCREWED UP, definetly the wrong attitude...... I didn't do myself or others any favors. I'm the first to admit I was part of the problem

Unfortunately most believe like the poor colgan FO that after a few thousand hours at colgan they're going to wind up at Alaska or Fedex. It's becoming a pipe dream. Even pilots that have been there and done that will not sway potential pilots. We can't, it's like crack cocaine. They have to try it.

Prevailing wage for pilots.....
 

In the construction industry there is a "prevailing wage". It is based on many factors, do some research. I would recommend google.
While working for a regional airline (as an FO) I make appx. $25,000 pay & Benefits. While working on prevaling wage construction jobs as an Electrician I made around $115,000. Prevailing Wage (Davis-Bacon) could be very easily done in the airline industry because most airlines recieve some kind of Government subsidy that would be cut off if they choose not to pay prevailing wage...........

You are trying to recreate the wheel.

That's a good point as I have often thought of that. Senior pilots and heavy jet guys, please don't take this the wrong way, but the only reason for the difference in pay between a commuter pilot and a legacy pilot is liability. The amount of work, pride taken, and level of responsibility is almost equal. For example if I were to fly a nice comfortable 777 across the country it would most likely take the same precautions, same pride, same level of flying skill as flying an ERJ170 on the same route. So why the pay difference? I guess it all boils down to more lives. Somehow if we were to admit to the passengers that their lives on that Q400 are worth less than the lives on the 757 they might start to complain a little more than usual. A life is a life but the airline see's it as how big of a lawsuit would there be if the plane were to go down. This is a principle that we have all through the years just adopted. Obviously pay is based on seats because of the revenue generated but do they pay the pilot less when the airplane is empty? So I think the biggest factor is liability. I'm probably going to get a lot of flack for going there but someones gotta step up. No offense.

Maybe it's the major's fault:

If we didn't have an expectation of 150-300k per year after making it to the major airlines, we wouldn't have so many new professional starts. Both pilots in the Colgan CVR mention this wage,

Perhaps we shouldn't consider a minimum wage as much as a maximum wage...eh?

Think about that.

I'm a big fan of setting wages across the industry to prevent whipsaw. Though my fear is if it's a government controlled wage (like Davis-Bacon) who then gets to set these wages? I would imagine there would be massive lobbying between ALPA and the airlines to tweak these wages up and down. Chances are, in light of cheap air fare, we'd probably lose every time.

In this industry theres alot of competition among pilot groups, the low cost carriers versus the legacies, all the regionals arguing about who stole who's flying. Maybe this is something that all airline pilots can agree on......better pay!

It would obviously be a tough battle but I think the wages would easily rise on the regional side of things, with government support, thus helping the majors get better rates.

Alot of pilots argue about scope, which is a ship that sailed a long time ago, and won't be returning to port. This would help offset the scope issues. United is talking about outsourcing their international flying, if all the pilots flying in the US are required to earn a certain hourly rate, this would put a stop to that outsourcing.

Competition
 

Prevailing wage stops the race to the bottom, If a CEO wants to be a better competator they can't cut wages as they are set by the board and all airlines pay the same. He must cut other variables in the profitababilty matrix, we will let him figure that out! Thats his/her job.

It's not a new idea, U.S. Grant signed the first Prevailing wage law in 1868! My wonder is why the Aviation Unions have not embraced the idea. The current pay situation is not good for anyone.

Seriously now. We need ideas how to fix compensation and work rules to make the industry safer. There are many reasons why our ideas won't work but we need to try. This is the first time in recent memory that pilot wages are in the news in a negative light. We are actually getting press time that could help us. This could be our time to make a change even though the odds are against us.
Some people here have come up with ideas to make changes which is good to see. Obviously ideas that are posted here are not finished or fully researched answers but they are a start in the right direction. Instead of only coming up for reasons why an idea will not work we need to find alternative solutions, sometimes within the problem itself.
I'm writing to the congressman for the aviation oversight committee but he (or his staffer) will pay less attention if I just vent my issues. Ideas for solutions is what we need.
In my mind this is a big window for us and we would be stupid not to give it our best shot to make improvements.

It is different because Walmart employees are not responsible for life. The only way this type of thing can get legs is if the government realizes that low pay=lack of talent at the regional level. Whenever any pilot starts to obtain solid experience at the regional level, they are trying to leave to make more money. Therefor the regionals do not have the talent that could have if they paid better.

And this is not capitalism. Capitalism is dead, look no further than the banking, auto, and housing industry. Capitalism would have called for the weak to die and the strong to survive.

KingAir you are EXACTLY right!!!!! NOTHING is going to change if we don't ALL come together and try and fix this problem. Those that keep saying "oh it will never work we might as well not try" just don't want to put in the work to make the industry better again like it was before 9/11. Well I for one am willing to do as much as I can to help make a change. If you could send me the name of that congressman that you were going to write, I will be right behind you in sending him some of my ideas as well. And maybe if you, and I, and Wally 24 as well as the others that actually want to try to help make this industry a great place to work again, really work at it I KNOW we can make a difference. LET'S ALL COME TOGETHER AND STOP BICKERING WITH ONE ANOTHER!!!!!!! Let's ALL make a difference and get paid for what we all love to do in the first place...FLYING!!!!!

This might make the Sunday paper tommorrow, but then that'll probably be the end of it. Then the window will close.

I NEVER talk about flying outside the cockpit, but suddenly neighbors and family are asking me what's going on in the industry. This has the public's attention more than I would've realized.

Kingair is right. I'm going to write my fine elected representatives in DC.

As long as we're brainstorming, perhaps we can work on getting paid while on duty or for TAFB instead of this parking brake off - parking brake on B.S.

The safety discussion probably needs to go the direction of pilot experience and/or training; not pay.

AWESOME KingAir Thank You!!!!! In addition to what you talked about earlier in the thread there is also the idea I had, now granted this is just a beginning idea, but if the govn. isn't able to regulate some of the issues that need to be corrected, now before I get shot at here I'm not saying regulate the whole industry (we all know that didn't work earlier on :D) just certain parts like pay and fatigue issues etc., maybe the govn. could at least regulate the minimum price that is charged for each route. I think one of the problems with the pay issue is the fact that all the companies are trying to undercut each other by charging less and less. And if the companies charge less and less, their employees get paid less and less This comment from a Regional airline pilot made me think about this:

("I am a regional pilot. I made about 24k last year. I spent over 300 hours away from home last month. Only during my 87 flying hours was I paid. I have been in some form of training for 9 years. I have 8 different pilot certificates. I have flown over two thousand hours. I have over 60k of college debt. My union is almost useless because a loophole in the law that doesn't allow us to strike properly for the wages we deserve. Because of the seniority system I can not leave my current airline for fear of starting all over again. My life is falling apart, because I decided to chase my dream. The airlines know this. They know that I want to go to work, and I can never leave. I do not want to make a million dollars. I do however want the respect of my passengers, my nearly homeless brethren, and the FAA. I want to sleep more then 5 hours a night. Everyone should damn the current set of laws that allow the airline to push us around. I recently was on a trip that gave to give my crew nearly 9 hours of "Scheduled Rest". The "Rest" was scheduled to begin upon our arrival at the airport, not the pillow. Our flight was delayed, then we had to wait for passengers to deplane(including the ones that have to wait up to 10 minutes for wheelchairs), then wait to catch a shuttle bus to a hotel 20 minutes away, try to sleep, then get up early because the hotel van only travels to the airport every 30 minutes, pass through security, and arrive at the gate in enough time to preflight and run 6 checklists. My 9 hours of "REST" turned into little more then 5 hours, during the middle of the day. How could anyone function after six days in a row of that kind of abuse. I think sleep deprivation was used in "Get-mo" as a form of torture for terrorist that wanted to hijack our airplanes. It seems to be more effective when used by crew scheduling to make those same aircraft crash anyway. Public perception is important, behind the shiny wings and fancy epaulets, is a person that makes a fraction of what he or she used to, or deserves to. I am responsible for YOUR life. I deserve to make at least a decent wage.")

Well if there is regulation on just the minimum amounts for each route, in addition to what you suggested before in this thread, I think we could finally get back to the pre-9/11 payscale that we deserve. I'll add this idea in whith the letter I send Senator Dorgan. If you have any other ideas that you would like to run by someone don't hesitate to PM me. Thanks again!

Nice idea! However, what would force the extra money charged per route to be passed onto the pilots and not into the pockets of those higher up??

Or the government? (as new "Aviation Re-regulation Act Tax", or perhaps the answer to preventing GA "user fees") Or the other employees? (Don't the rampers and mechanics deserve a little more too?)

I was going to argue your posting point by point, but there is soo much in error it is easier just to say; You're way wrong about just about everything.

If we were in France, everyone could just walk off the job until it got better. There's no hope for us here. See you in the gutter.