No More Captain/Co-pilot
 

In my estimation our problems with seniority, experience and wages lies with the current captain/co-pilot system that we have. If all pilots were hired as captains and were all paid the same then you could hire pilots with more experience.

Why would a guy with 4000 hours of quality time want to go and fly for a regional at FO wages? What experienced pilot wants to risk being stuck in the right seat in the seniority system of upgrades? Job satisfaction is more than pay. People need to be respected and to have their needs considered. In our current captain first officer system the captain gets the wages and job satisfaction while the first officer gets to endure an open ended sacrifice of waiting for equal pay and privileges.

There is talk about requiring new hire first officers to have an ATP. My understanding is that the position of first officer was intended as an apprentice job and not to serve as a double PIC. In the op specs of my regional airline the job description of line captain included serving as an instructor and guide to first officers. However if the position of FO is intended to have the same skills, certifications and abilities as the captain then they should make the same wages, carry the same title and trade the left seat every other leg.

In our current situation senior captains usually are the ones who negotiate the contract with management. In most cases they push wages up at the top while the vacuum at the bottom insures that new hires make squat. Then captains complain because management can only hire 300 hour know nothing first officers.

We would have a better profession that attracts better pilots if everyone was able to start at a livable wage and to achieve professional satisfaction on a schedule that was dependent upon performance and not at the whims of management or the economy.

There are plenty of experienced pilots out there however they will not show up for high school kid wages and working conditions.


SKyhigh

You can't have 2 CA's as the norm.... Someone is going to have to be the decision maker and someone has to only *think* they could do it better. You must have a chief and an indian, otherwise the chiefs just kill each other.

You can't have two pilots in command. Even with a heavy crew; ie two captains and a first officer, one captain is disgnated as PIC and the other captain is the second in command... while the first officer is well the first officer.

It's a novel idea, but the reality is otherwise. The fact is, there will always be a pilot, with or with an ATP, willing to fly for $16,400/year. It's called capitalism. Until there is no supply of cheap labor, things will remain the same. And it appears that the supply is in abundance nowadays. Mesa, GoJet, Great Lakes, ect, have no shortage of applicants.

That's because it's generally the only way to get your foot in the doorways of flying for a major.

There is a surplus of pilots right now... from furloughed, laid off, even to those who are CFI's.. many want to get into the regionals and are simply waiting their turn... I'm one of them.

The way I see it is, I've invested 100,000 dollars in my education in being a pilot, I'm going to see my way through to the end of it. If I do something else other than flying, I wasted 100 grand.

I hate to say it, but I think many of us have wasted a hundred grand. It's like going to med-school to become a daycare attendant. Except a daycare attendant makes more money than a pilot and is home every night. And, oh yeah, has weekends off.

That's pretty smart. After the airlines take back the thousands of furloughed, the laid off and the CFIs that were dumb enough to wait for the regionals, you're going to make poverty wages trying to break even on your investment while spending a nice portion of your career at a regional being that almost half of flying is regional here. You could have done a whole lot more with 100000 in career investment money. Maybe there are others that will think twice about this career now.

There is only one captain, but that doesn't mean the other guy can't be qualified to be a captain. Whomever is sitting left side is the designated PIC. If the guy on the right disagrees with a decision, he speaks up - a duty of an F.O. as well. Think about being a flight instructor. The student is the "PIC" (assuming we're beyond the basics) and makes the decisions regarding the flight. Even though the CFI has more experience, you let the student be a pilot. Only jump in when safety is in question. When I am teaching, I treat the student as the PIC regarding most everything that we've covered previously. The captain qualified "FO" can do the same thing, even if he has more experience. Drop the egos!

I actually like this idea. All pilots are PIC typed in the aircraft. On a side note, what the hell is an SIC type? Answer: A joke. But, I digress:

Both pilots coming in with experience, ATP, and type, and commensurate pay should both be able to command the aircraft competently. What label you slap on them is a side note.

I never upgraded before I got the boot, but some of the guys I flew with had less experience than I had when I left. At the regional level, there is nothing "holier than thou" about a captain vs. 1-2 year FO. But the pay is twice.

You sink or swim together, live or die together, attend the FAA/NTSB hearing together, you ought to be equally qualified and equally able to do the job.

The seniority system has its place. Schedules would be based on it, there would still be a pay raise commensurate with years of service, but it could be a PILOT pay scale, not FO/CA. Sick time accruals, vacation, etc coud all stay based on seniority.

But, we can dream all day long. Back to reality.....

Not all of us care about money. Flying is my passion, has been for the previous 10 years... right now while I'm waiting for the industry to turn around, I'm paying off my debts and saving money, so that when I do get picked up by an airline, even if the pay is low for a year or so, I have enough in savings to assist my financial responsibilities.

I agree. Not to negate anyone in particular that made this decision, but accumulating this kind of debt for this job is a horrible decision on many levels. As was said, "I have 100,000 in debt. If I do anything other than flying, I've wasted it" - paraphrased. You are now a perfect candidate for the job, as you can be displaced, paid nothing, given 1 day off between trips, furloughed, called back, furloughed, etc and you'll stick around, ensuring the airlines' ROI on you is in the black.

The rest of us who took many years to get qualified, but are not laden with debt, have the maneuverability to get out when the lashes get too violent.

Additionally, the cancer on this industry is this whole PASSION thing. First off, I get it. Look at my website URL below. Been there done that, I love it as much as anyone ever has. But, its like the mouse whose lost his tail in yesterday's mousetrap - but he's just GOT to have that cheese!! Eventually its going get the best of him.

The ability to truly walk away is lacking. This industry is a small group, folks. There are only so many places to go.

A year or so....... Better look around the pay sucks for much longer than a year or so. Until you get on with a major (which may never happen at the rate they are loosing flying) pay will be terrible. QOL has/is deteriorating at all levels from the regional to major. Heck after 9/11 I took a 50% cut in pay and benefits. Now 8 years later and flying a much larger aircraft I still don't make what I did pre 9/11, and I even work for the best US major airline (at least in my opinion).

This isn't the first time this week that similar thoughts have been brought up on these boards.

I chimed in in favor of ATP minimums being the standard qualifications for all new-hires at 121 carriers.

The reality for the next couple of years, is that (close to) these higher standards will prevail, i.e. pilot surpluss.

Common sense says that regional airlines will ALWAYS pick up less qualified applicants rather than pay more for more experienced pilots.

Crappy for our profession? yes. Potentially unsafe? Certainly.
Going to change? I would bet against it.

This proposal is just another in the long line of pipe dreams that are not credible in today's system. Get over it, or get a new career.

THAT is the perfect analogy. Very well said and I totally agree. If I could do it all over again I wouldn't be in this career. A guy told me the other day that HE heard from ANOTHER guy that said:

"Neat job....horrible career" and I couldn't agree more.

I think I just threw up a little. People that fly because of "passion" or love should stick to GA otherwise it clouds judgement. Do I enjoy flying absolutely, would I pick another career if it pays better and home every night. In a heartbeat.

One day the number of people willing to spend 100k for training only to earn 40k after five years will dry up. When that happens pay will come up. That is the only way I see it happening.

So why don't you then? (just ribbin' ya;))

Being a pilot is a job, when you do a job you care about money. You do a job for money. Flying a jet should pay a lot of money. Money pays off debts.

Captain Pay
 

If airlines and others expect regionals to hire experienced pilots there needs to be some fundamental changes to the current system. Why is it that a captain makes around twice what the average FO makes? How is an experienced pilot with a family to feed expected to accept a job that pays less than the local grocery store?

If pay was taken away from the captains and given to the first officers then this profession would regain a lot of its lost security. Currently even if you are an experienced pilot and were to loose your job or switch employers you have to start over at zero at the next company. If every company paid a moderate wage to each pilot then that risk would be minimized.

Currently however each company has a small percentage of the pilot group that makes the bulk of the available wages. Incidentally they are also the ones who usually negotiate the contract often years before the new hire even has a chance to voice their wishes. It is not a fair system especially during times when a guy could be stuck as an FO for most of a decade.

As the current system is established the position of first officer is clearly intended as an apprentice job. Therefore they need to go to young single low experienced pilots who can afford to live on those wages in trade for gaining valuable experience. Grown up and experienced pilots with families to feed need to be able to earn a good living. If companies wish to hire lifelong professional pilots then they need to shift the balance to more of a parity situation.

Skyhigh

Co-Captains/ Professional Pilots
 

Plenty of companies operate with co-captains. If it is your leg you are the boss. We need to foster an environment of lifelong professional pilots.

Skyhigh

And many of them are Part 91 or Part 135.

You can easily have two captains in the cockpit but only one designated PIC...

I hope you grow some integrity by the time you get hired. If not, you wont go far!

JJ