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If you don't like it then just quit....

Old 05-30-2009, 11:27 AM
  #1  
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Default If you don't like it then just quit....

First year F.O pay is probably the most important factor for QOL job security and safety.

- Experienced 135 pilots are extremely reluctant to take a regional job. I met several that had houses, families etc, that claimed that they would never fly for a regional because they couldn't financially survive long enough to wait for an upgrade.

- Lateral Moves. You can't make them as an airline pilot. You can't make a living wage with your skill set for the first 12 months at a regional or major.

So what you end up with

- Regional applicants from Pilot puppy mills that are 21, and thrilled to supplement there parental monthly allowance with first year pay. (beer money)

- A vacuum of experience in first year FO's. Silver spoon bratty kids with crappy attitudes and no skill to back them up.

- A skill set that you can't offer to another (potentially better) company. You can't "STFD" a bad company, because your just "STFDing" yourself, your family, and your career. Management just moves to another company for a pay raise, you however start all over again in one of lifes most depressing "do overs".

The old saying "If you don't like it, then quit" is a fallacy in aviation. You can't afford to leave a miserable working environment.

In good times where 1000hrs 121 PIC is all that you need the pay scale may be

18000, 25000, 30000, 60000 = $133,000 over four years

thats an average of $33250 per year. Over a 40 hour work week that would be 15 dollars per hour for 4 years. Thats on par with many jobs that require only a high school diploma, and no special skill set.

So unless your a regional lifer, your not benefiting from the major difference between captain and fo pay.
Even if you upgrade in three years, your still only pulling down an average of 30ish thousand for your time

I would have gladly earned less as a Captain on year four to ensure that I didn't have to live in poverty for the first 2. With the ability to make a lateral move and earn a living wage, if you didn't like it... you could just quit.
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Old 05-30-2009, 01:42 PM
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Default Right on !!

You nailed it !

Skyhigh
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Old 05-30-2009, 09:56 PM
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Originally Posted by SkyHigh View Post
You nailed it !

Skyhigh
+1 here. Unfortunately I'm sitting on quandry #1. Doing the 135 bit but I'd take a more than 50% pay CUT at some regionals, and I"m flying airplanes older than I am that carry less than some SUV's. On top of that I'm looking at little to no movement over the next few years in the industry with few options to move on to. (especially if I want to remain in my area). I guess I'm thankful to have a job and I'm enjoying the flying - but I'm really not sure what, or when the next move will be. I just hope I don't have any decisions forced on me anytime soon.. Good luck to everyone!
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Old 05-30-2009, 10:05 PM
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Part 91/135 pilots can CHOOSE to lowball.

Almost all U.S. Part 121 pilots MUST lowball - courtesy of ALPA.
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Old 05-30-2009, 10:12 PM
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Originally Posted by FNFAL View Post

I would have gladly earned less as a Captain on year four to ensure that I didn't have to live in poverty for the first 2. With the ability to make a lateral move and earn a living wage, if you didn't like it... you could just quit.
That's a good point. An airline has set hourly pay for the crew so they probably don't really care which way it's split. The problem with that is now that it looks like we might be at the regionals for more than a couple of years, the senior guys will demand more money.
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Old 05-31-2009, 07:52 AM
  #6  
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Originally Posted by FNFAL View Post
So what you end up with

- Regional applicants from Pilot puppy mills that are 21, and thrilled to supplement there parental monthly allowance with first year pay. (beer money)

- A vacuum of experience in first year FO's. Silver spoon bratty kids with crappy attitudes and no skill to back them up.
That's painting a rather wide brush. The majority of first year FOs are not spike-haired, ipod & backpack wearing punks.

Some of them are spike-haired old farts.

Some couldn't afford the ipod or the hair gel, thus have a cheap alternative (mine cost $12).

Some have a saddlebag.

Some comply with their FOM that prohibits backpacks.

And sometimes, TSA stole their hair gel .
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Old 05-31-2009, 08:12 AM
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I really think they should do something about the starting pay but I also think they could leave the pay intact for more senior pilots - why not a raise across the board? Consider if they raised the ticket price TWO DOLLARS per passenger - say conservatively there were 30 people on board, you did 4 legs per day and worked 180 days that year (2x30x4x180) you'd wind up with over 43,000 dollars per year you could split between the flight crew on top of what they already make! Many regional pilots also work more than 180 days, have more than 4 legs and more than 30 people on board too. I hardly feel like the airlines would be dropping like flies if everyone raised the ticket price by $2.00. Might even raise the professionalism and saftey level. But I'm no economist, and I don't work for management. So I probably don't have a clue. We're all circus animals that will work for peanuts to preserve our job, or our dream of flying. They've figured us out.
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Old 05-31-2009, 10:44 AM
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Originally Posted by RJSAviator76 View Post
Almost all U.S. Part 121 pilots MUST lowball - courtesy of ALPA.
ALPA cannot force any airline MEC to accept a poor contract. They can only advise. So, if you're going to make a statement like that, you should really phrase it "courtesy of local MECs."
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Old 05-31-2009, 12:14 PM
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Originally Posted by BZNpilot248 View Post
I really think they should do something about the starting pay but I also think they could leave the pay intact for more senior pilots - why not a raise across the board? Consider if they raised the ticket price TWO DOLLARS per passenger - say conservatively there were 30 people on board, you did 4 legs per day and worked 180 days that year (2x30x4x180) you'd wind up with over 43,000 dollars per year you could split between the flight crew on top of what they already make! Many regional pilots also work more than 180 days, have more than 4 legs and more than 30 people on board too. I hardly feel like the airlines would be dropping like flies if everyone raised the ticket price by $2.00. Might even raise the professionalism and saftey level. But I'm no economist, and I don't work for management. So I probably don't have a clue. We're all circus animals that will work for peanuts to preserve our job, or our dream of flying. They've figured us out.
I have tried very hard not to comment on these types of posts but..
Please guys... Lets understand something. THE AIRLINES ARE A BUSINESS.
If they could raise fares any amount, be it one cent or 1000 dollars, pilots or any labor would not see it trickle down to them as long as they are willing to do the job for the price that they are being paid for and accepting. The KEY is accepting a pay rate. By taking a job at any amount of compensation you determine the price of your services. WHY would anyone pay a penny more?

Supply and Demand.
Unfortunately the demand will not be met by supply and supply by demand as long as the free market does not exist in the job market of an airline industry because of the existence of a union and/or seniority number.

No seniority number = free market = opportunity to adapt to market price.
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Old 05-31-2009, 12:17 PM
  #10  
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I guess my point is that saying "if you don't like it, then just quit" does a disservice to the profession. It is common knowledge that lateral moves are actually huge steps backwards in aviation. You are erasing years of work towards an upgrade, or livable FO wages. Until first year pay is livable, many pilots will be stuck in miserable work conditions, with no other options. If you are stuck at a company that abuses flight crews, your options are to...

- Accept a poverty wage from another regional airline for at least 1 year.
- Accept a near poverty wage from a Major for at least 1 year.
- Retrain yourself for a new career while paying for school out of pocket, while most likely making little or no income.
- Abandon your aspirations to become an airline pilot and return to 91/135 flying, although those jobs may or may not exist any more.

All while you drag your family along for the ride.

I think regional crews have many valid reasons to be upset. and I think encouraging pilots to accept poor pay and working conditions, because "they should quit if they are unhappy" is an unrealistic ideal.

Its time to pay crews in their first year to encourage competition for talent.
Management gets huge bonuses to attract and keep executive "talent" (lol). I think its time to start paying for crew talent. Whatever that takes. MEC's and ALPA need to make a huge push on first year pay.
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