Is it really this bad....
 

Was ready to take out 45 Grand loan (that after getting 27K from VA) to go to ATP in ATL. I am a firefighter for a major metro Atlanta department w/ wife and 2 kids. Im glad I stumbled upon this forum! Wow...ATP said now is the best time to train...in the downturn. Is it really this bad at the regionals?

Yes.

ATP wants your money. That is their sole purpose. They couldn't care less what happens after you graduate. Flight schools sell a "dream", not reality. If you want to fly primarily for enjoyment, it IS worth it, I promise - just don't take a loan, pay as you go. But if you want to fly solely as an alternative career, it isn't worth it.

There is a very, very good chance that you will not come close to a return of investment for the better part of a decade and you will struggle to support your family without living paycheck to paycheck unless you have rich parents, your wife makes over $100k, get a second job that pays $60k, etc.

There is no movement, and nearly zero hiring, at all right now. If you do not have a degree, I would use that money to go to school and fly on the side to get you instructor ratings. After you finish, the industry might be better.

It is fairly bad at the regionals right now, in 1-2-3-4-5 years depending on which "expert" you talk to things will be picking up for the apprenticeship type jobs we call regionals.

elijahmike1, read through this thread.

http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/ma...ng-plunge.html

Dude,

Stay a firefirghter. I'd be one yesterday if there wasn't a hiring freeze. Don't waste your time with this worthless career, and DO NOT give ATP one cent!!

Getting your ratings in a downturn has generally been good advice. However, this has been the worst one in my career and even after the economy recovers and hiring resumes, the jobs available to you will almost certainly involve low pay and QOL. If you can afford the loan payments without expectations of paying it through a flying career for at least a decade, then go ahead.

After ten years of flying (7 at the regionals, and three at a legacy airline) I have yet to break 70k in a calendar year.

I have no pension.

I'm still paying off my debt from expenses when I learned to fly and the miscellaneous debt we racked up while I was an FO at the regionals for 5 years.

Stay a firefighter. Your wife, kids, and pension will be better off.

If you're determined to fly, learn to, and go out for a 100 (now 250) dollar hamburger once in a while.

Just my humble opinion BTW.

Like others have said, the ROI for the cost of your training will take a while...even before you start accounting for lost wages/retirement/benefits.

With that said, a downturn is always a good time to learn; I was a freshman in college when 9/11 happened and the seniors graduating in 2002 were entering a job market that, while different than today, was still pretty bleak.

No change since the last time you asked...
 

I think you got a lot of great advice and a pretty firm perspective on the current situation of the aviation industry in your original thread.

Yes, it really is that bad in the regionals.

Hog

First, I would like to say that this forum is a good source of opinions, but, I would take anything here with a grain of salt. There are many self proclaimed experts. Including yours truly. It sounds like you are doing research on various fronts and that is a good way to go.

The idea of training in a downturn has merit. It's all about supply and demand. When the job market for pilots is grim, as it is now, there are fewer people wanting to enter training and there are some people who are already working for airlines who will decide to switch careers.

Also, it may be true that the larger the downturn equates to a larger upswing. Bottom line is that nobody really knows. If you are in love with flying and in love with the pilot lifestyle, you will find success and happiness. You may find financial rewards as well. If you are just seeking respect from others, a big paycheck and lots of days off, you are likely to be disappointed.

Also, my advise is train an hour at a time at the local FBO while keeping the day job. Much cheaper and probably more fun.

The best statement I have read on APC in a long time: If you are just seeking respect from others, a big paycheck and lots of days off, you are likely to be disappointed.

So true.


Skyhigh

^ Yeah that.

Spending 45K for a commercial license is insane. I can't believe so many guys fall for those pilot school scams.

I learned to fly at the local airport. It was a 141 school, but I earned my commerical, multi, and instrument in 18 months. In total, I spent a little more than $25000. I spent another 5000 on the CFI, CFII, and MEI.

ATP is great if there is a hiring boom because of the number of multi hours you gan accrue. In this environment though, I would just visit the local FBO. If you spend three days a week flying and one day a week in ground school, or four hours a week total, there's no reason you can't earn your private in about four months. The same goes for the instrument rating.

My biggest advice would be to not go into debt to pay for your flight training if at all possible. There are lots of different roads to the cockpit which won't involve ATP, or a 60K loan...My college education cost right around 60k, and that was including all flight training, with a total of around 30k itself....basically half and half. Prices have gone up, but it'd be better to go to a local airport on your days off / weekends and do flight training up through your commercial certificate (appx. 250 hrs). In the long run, i think you'll enjoy the flying more than you will at the fast track ATP type programs, and even if it takes a little longer for you to get where you want to be, you really shouldn't be in much of a hurry anyway. You'll learn some valuable flying skills, go to some cool destinations, and have your arms resting on the windowsill as you scream through the air at 100 mph. :cool: small airports also tend to have some great networking potential. So-in-so was a pilot for TWA, he stills know "blahblahblah" who hires for American, or "i've got a twin that i barely fly, if you put the gas in it, you can take it on your crosscountry flights". All of which can be valuable, when the time comes to work, you can do your CFI flying on the side, until you decide to dedicate more time to flying than firefighting, and really build your hours up, the key to that is at the point you're really building flight experience (after your 250 hrs, and your commercial and or instructor ratings) you'll be getting paid as opposed to paying to fly.The difficult task is supplementing the lost income from your previous career. best of luck.

Don't do it. Think of the person at ATP as a used car salesman, they only want your money. This is not a good time to train. Keep your job and just wait a little while. Go get your private at least just to get some experience, fly for fun and wait this mess out.:cool:

Another thing to consider is to combine you interest/skills in firefighting with flying. There are firefighting flying jobs. They may not pay as much but they seem to be more stable.

And far more exciting than any lower-48 regional gig...

You've gotten good advice here.

My personal opinion: I probably wouldn't aim for being a career airline pilot If I got to do it again. I'd fly for fun and get a good technical degree.

The worst part to me:
There is NO lateral movement among seniority-based companies. IE: If you are 121 and lose your job, you start ALLL over again at the bottom if you keep with 121.

It was very humbling and scary to watch laid off pilots from major airlines with 10,000+ hours interview with me at a regional for a 24,000/yr. job.

Disclaimer: I went 135 in the end, not 121.

I agree with a lot of the replies. Don't go into debt for flight training, and don't go to ATP. The career is a dice roll, and there are so many ways that it can fail to pay out. If you have anything other than great luck, it could be 10+ years until you make anything resembling decent income.

DO NOT GO INTO DEBT TO START THIS CAREER!!!!!!!!!!

A $45,000 loan over 10 years at 6% means a payment of $500 per month.

There is a joke:
What is the difference between a large pizza and a regional pilot?
The pizza can feed a family of four.


Now, IF you are still interested in professional flying...

If you are using the GI Bill money, in my day it:
had to be a part 141 school
would cover 50% of the cost (but 141 schools charge more than 61 schools)
only started after you have a private ticket
If that is still the case, where you go to get your private is entirely up to you.

Go to a bunch of nearby airports, there are bunches more than you probably know about (use this site to find some AirNav: Airport Information). Talk to the folks at the FBOs, compare prices, check out the airplanes, ask for references, and maybe even haggle a little. Schools are pretty hungry for students, so you might make a good deal if, for example, you agreed to pay in advance.

AFTER you have your private, you can start thinking about 141 schools. If you have a little luck, the FBO you chose for the private HAS a 141 curriculum. Back in the day, 141 cost 10-20% more per ticket, but you got to use the GI Bill to cover 50%. Again, schools are hungry, you might be able to cut another deal with a local.

You mentioned ATP. I have no experience with them. I have worked at another "name brand" school and attended one myself (I didn't know any better and google didn't exist). All that advertising, fancy buildings, and huge staffs cost money; so, just like canned corn, the name brand is more expensive for what is often the same as the no-name.

No one really knows when the turn around will come. In the past year or so, maybe 10,000 pilots lost their job last year. American still has 2000 on furlough. To put that into perspective, Delta, the largest US airline, employs 12,000 pilots. Let's be really optimistic and say the majors start hiring tomorrow, it could still take years to deplete the glut of unemployed pilots. If one were lucky enough to get a regional job today, it would be several years before $30,000.

One final thing to consider: how will the Mrs. feel about you making less than half what you are earning now, spend 20 days a month away from home, and have added $500 per month of debt?

Whatever you decide, good luck.

And for all of us who sleep better at night knowing you and your brethren are on the job, Thank You!

JSH

Oh, and the honesty of the average 141 recruiter is about equal to the average Army recruiter!

I would never recommend going to ATP. If you could get a loan for that, perhaps you could get a smaller loan and buy yourself a small Cessna 150. They can be found in the 20-25K range. Learn to fly in it and if you don't like it, you can sell it. If you do like it, you could move through your ratings, do some of the advanced training and time building in your own plane, and get to the point where you can instructor others and make a buck.

Take your time and don't go into much debt. Keep your day job but explore the opprotunity to fly. This has always been a cyclical business and we are seeing a perfect storm low because of the economy and age 65. I feel good about the prospects of it turning around. Many of the folks with good jobs, like me, will eventually retire and open up a spot in the food chain.

This site is overwhelmingly negative. I think the happy, satisfied, folks have better things to do than complain about life on an anonymous message board. Really, I think that's typical of anonymous internet sites. As many people that post here, they are a VERY small fractions of all pilots in the biz.

Take it all with a grain of salt. Explore it on your own and form your own opinions. Don't believe the ATP marketing staff. Remember, your career situation, decisions, and expectations are unique to you. Good luck.

You can't be serious. In this economy you want to take out a $45,000 loan with wife and 2 kids? You've got some real good advice here especially from FlyJSH. His analysis is spot on. Fly on the side and keep your firefighting job. You may or may not like flying so why take such a huge risk. When and if the airline industry turns around, try your hands then if you still want to pursue it. But just know it will take many years to make what you are making now as a firefighter.

I could not have said this any better than you. ATP are just in the business of taking your money and give a s*&$ if you make it or not..This career was once glorious, now it's a mockery.

ATP is good if everyone is hiring. That way the extra price which I believe has come down a bit is justified because you get your ratings quickly. You will NEVER be able to do what atp does at a local fbo and you get great experience. Howerver since nobody is hiring, it's just not worth it.

I would put some serious thought into filing that idea away in the nice-to-do box if I were you. I spent most of my adult life working toward a career in the 121 airline world and it nearly ruined me in about a years time on the job. I quit, joined the phone company and make a captains salary now. I even bought a Tomahawk to get my flying kicks for a mere fraction of a zero to hero school tuition. Bottom line... It is not worth the investment.

What does that make you if you're a moderator here? A bit hypocritical of you to use such generalizations don't you think?

To the original poster,

If you're going to do this for a living just make sure you know what you're getting yourself into. There's a lot of things to look at and you will get different responses from different folks at different airlines. In other words, if they work for a less reputable company with bad pay and QOL, then you'll probably get a lot of negative feedback. If you talk to anyone that works a good company with good pay and QOL, well then you'll probably get a different story. A lot of it believe it or not has to do luck and timing, there are some great folks here that have been through not one, not two, but three furloughs! And then there are others that are lucky enough to never have been furloughed.

A school like All ATP's will get you your ratings quickly but at a premium.

In today's job market their is no advantage to that.

I recommend you find a local flying club or FBO and get your ratings that way. In three or four years when hiring turns around you will be ready.

Use the extra money to get a degree in something you can use as a back up.

My question is after being in a respected profession as a firefighter , Why would you want to become an airline pilot?

Very true. Luck, timing, and who you know will have a great impact on one's career. And he is right that personal experience has great influence on what one posts on this site. Honestly, my present employer is the first one that did not appreciate me as a worker or fully trust my decisions.

That said, I do think you need to hear the negative. The folks trying to sell you flight instruction and probably you own beliefs paint aviation in a rosy picture..... a picture similar to what I, as a kid, thought of being a firefighter (all romance, no reality).

I offer my view, which most would see as dark, as a realistic balance to the dream most of us had.

In spite of all I have been through, my love for being in the clouds will keep me doing this work while fighting to improve the life. Keep in mind, I have no family, nor do I want one, but every morning I fly east into a sunrise, I cant help but think, "and they pay me to do this".

Not having a family does make it easier to deal with the ins and outs of this industry. However, a sunrise pales in comparison to watching your baby son/daughter smile up at you.

100% correct!

Breaking through clouds tops at 300 kts is nice.....but I am a grown man and I still almost come to tears each week when I leave my wife and new baby at home to go away for several days for work.


Its not an easy road, but I wish you the best of luck in whatever decision you make.

Something a husband and father of two should think about prior to making the plunge.

Kids change everything
 

The worst part is when they begin to become use to you being gone.

Eventually you will get days off in the middle of the week when your wife is at work and your kids at school. You are home but all alone. You might get a few hours of quality family time per week. Not worth it.

SKyhigh

nitecat
 

Now might be a good time for a 16 year
old to start getting his ratings. In 10-12
years there will be a severe pilot shortage
due to the extremely negative conditions
in this career field at the present time.