Important Article On Pay And Fatigue
 

Regional carriers, including American Eagle, face pilot training review | News for Dallas, Texas | Dallas Morning News | Dallas Business News

The last paragraph: Unions have argued that the regional pilots – whose annual salaries start around $20,000 on average – can become fatigued as they try to accumulate hours.

Regulators said the quick response stemmed in part from White House concern about revelations of regional carriers' reliance on inexperienced and low-paid pilots.


I do believe that pay and fatigue are tied together. How many regional pilots are kept up at night thinking about paying bills and making ends meet.... or working second or third jobs? I do.

Everything in the media is good momentum for our cause. Write your reps and spread the word!

I do too. My bank account is down to zero dollars as of yesterday. My my mother had to send me money through western union, I was so embarrased to ask but i had to do it..

What makes you think this will lead to anything positive for the pilots? Everyone knows that low pay did not bring 3407 down and no one, certainly gov has any authority over changing an airlines pay. The duty limits could change but I just don't see anything overwhelming here that would prompt an industry wide change of regs written about a thousand years ago. All they will do is harass the new and current pilots and make them do extra sim all because one night someone forgot how to get an airplane out of a stall. Ask anyone, most will tell you that their regional training was as hard if not harder than at the majors or corp. Not to mention this whole thing is contradictory because these pilots were "high timers" by regional standards. Almost 2500 for the FO and I think 3500 for the CA, mostly tprop.

Whats that quote about... it's easier to say no we can't rather than yes we can. Naysayers will always lurk on these forums. Nice try.

This isn't just about 3407, its about how much our low pay has been in the news lately. Most people didn't know it was this low.

That's your idea of a high timer for a regional? While there are FOs with exceptions out there there's nothing even close to high time about them. I have 4300ish hours and don't consider myself to be high time. I think I'm in the middle.

That's one of the more clueless statements I've seen in a while. Ever heard of the RLA? You should read it and realize what it's done to us and then reevaluate your previous comment.

You didn't high light properly. If you did, you would have seen that I said no one, certainly the gov, has any authority to change airline pay.

True I screwed up the quoting but that's mostly due to the fact that I'm partially drunk and just finished 6 days of flying. Either way, the point is that the government is the only one who has ANY control over our wages right now. I'd love to see how a pilot group has any leverage when the government prevents them from ever striking.

No I don't consider 2500 as low time for a regional. Flight time is all relative. If you're a 4300ish hour FO, then it's not exactly higher than a 3500 hour CA as far as experience.

Glad to see this post. Thank you for taking the time. If people can't meet the minimum obligations of life (bills, food, etc.) it naturally degrades their ability to focus their complete attention on other tasks (i.e. flying an airplane). It's not a matter of opinion it is just part of being human.

Even when a conscious decision is made to leave one's troubles out of the cockpit, the degradation to the mind and body has already occurred.

Well put. Thanks for adding this. Your post was more eloquent than mine because currently my brain is fried in the middle of a 4 day trip.

I wish everyone thought along these lines, instead of trying to argue against improving our profession.

EmbraerFlyer,

I would suggest you contact your state representative and tell them exactly what you wrote on here. Your low pay was embarrassing to you, you can't sustain a living, etc. Let them know the stress it causes you, and instead of focusing on your weight and balance your thinking about how your going to pay your phone bill in case crew scheduling needs to get a hold of you (since they don't pay for that either, but that’s a whole different issue.)

That goes for everyone else to:

In order to contact the offices of your representative, call the White House switchboard at 202-224-3121 and request that office. Once connected, request to speak to someone in regards to the hearings in congress today on regional airline safety, and that you are a pilot. Make it known, that change must occur.

In Unity,

-StrikeTime

If our ancestors had the same mentality as you, we would still be part of England today and women would not be able to occupy the cockpit.

If you want to continue with your lowly wages and be treated like cattle from management, please, by all means, continue with what you are doing. For the rest of us, we will do the best we can in trying to bring change.

I have said it a few times, but this Captain was hired as a low timer. That is the issue that would be addressed by raising the standards. I don't care how many hours someone has sat in an airplane watching the autopilot fly him/her somewhere, it doesn't make you a better pilot. If you don't have good stick and rudder skills when you get hired at an airline, you will never get them. No matter how many hours you watch George take you somewhere.

Beginning FO pay has been beginning FO pay for a long time. LOOOOWWW! There were no surprises going into this. I agree that pay is too low. But for those embarrassed about getting money wired to them from mother, that is a financial planning problem on your part. I can tell my new students just starting out with lesson #1 what their first year FO pay will be. Planning for it is key. If the numbers don't work, you ought to either work another job for an extra year and save or just find another job altogether.

Minimwage 4 is just telling the hard truth that no one wants to hear. The govt. can't make airline companies pay us a set wage. Only the unions and supply and demand can. Pinnacle is in negotations right now with the union...do you think with all the bad press they've gotten that they will offer up decent wages? I'm not holding my breath.

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Originally Posted by bryris (Post 626001)

Beginning FO pay has been beginning FO pay for a long time. LOOOOWWW! There were no surprises going into this. I agree that pay is too low. But for those embarrassed about getting money wired to them from mother, that is a financial planning problem on your part. I can tell my new students just starting out with lesson #1 what their first year FO pay will be. Planning for it is key.

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Correct, it has been low for many years and it has kept getting lower. But it doesn't have to stay that way. Five years ago the threat of bankruptcy by management was a tactic used to sustainably lower wages and increase profit margins for there big bonus checks as well as the shareholders, with no language written in there to one day restore what once used to be part of the career.

Now to specifically address what you wrote, how is one supposed to plan ahead when these concessions were decided upon by certain individuals in a union? One might have financially planned him or herself to survive paycheck to paycheck on the current wage, but then the concessions came in. And it looks like more may be coming with the attitude of certain individuals in this industry.

On a personal note, I just had a friend downgraded within the last year. 2nd year Captain back in the right seat. How was he supposed to financially plan himself? He went from $70,000, to $35,000. Show me an industry where a cut that drastic can occur. Someone mentioned in another thread that FO's should be paid 75% of a captain's salary. I think that is a very fair number.

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If the numbers don't work, you ought to either work another job for an extra year and save or just find another job altogether.

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Now this will put us back a little more on topic. Working another job for another year is more easily said than done. One year and the airlines may stop hiring..-it may be too late. Working another job while working for the airlines will leave you fatigued.. are you indeed supposed to be resting on your days off or working?

Finding another job altogether is what the best and the brightest are doing today, which is why were in this problem in the first place.

I've wrote it once, and I'll write it again. Together with the help of the government we can slowly begin to restore our profession to what it once used to be. We have a labor friendly administration. I urge everyone to CALL there representatives and discuss this issue with one of there office workers. The more calls the more attention this will receive. Here is how:

In order to contact the office of your representative, call the White House switchboard at 202-224-3121 and request that office. Once connected, request to speak to someone in regards to the hearings in congress today on regional airline safety, and that you are a pilot. Make it known, that change must occur.

But the government can uphold to the Railway Labor Act which prohibits us from striking and gaining QOL and pay improvements, correct? Then they can release us as well and we can achieve those goals in unison. Just a little information for you on other unionized professions and there salaries..

Elevator mechanics: $44/hr
Building engineers: $39/hr
Plumbers: $24/hr

These professions are not prohibited from striking by the RLA.

We have no leverage and that is why we are in the position that we are in today. If you think pay has nothing to do with stress, fatigue, and the way we function in the cockpit (not deliberately, but as human beings in nature), you have another thing coming. The Pilots Handbook of Aeronautical Knowledge states we shouldn’t be flying if we encounter any of those symptoms. Have you been flying that way? I know I am guilty of that as well as many others.

You may continue to believe that we can't do anything and it will always be like this, but I for one, and I know many others will continue to try and make this for the better. You can sit back and watch or you can be part of it..-join the momentum. It will not happen tomorrow, it may not happen next month, but it will eventually come sometime in the near future. Congress is hearing about it, something will be done.

I once again, urge you to call your representative and discuss this issue with him/her.

Oh no, I can see it now "....drunk pilot flies six days, has hard time operating electronic device..." :p

Not to change the subject but we pretty much are...Yeah I know you think it's a rediculous statement but it's true.

First year FO pay has not been getting lower. Its been abysmal for a long time. More senior pay has been decreasing, THAT is where the concessions have come.

Again, the concessions have hit the higher ups in terms of reduced pensions and other cuts. The first rungers haven't really seen a decrease. Perhaps the lack of COLAs over the years may have dropped the value of the wage.

I cannot differ with you there. That hurts bad. However, hopefully more pilots going forth will not radically increase their lifestyle upon upgrade but rather keep a larger reserve going. Flying is unlike most other jobs. You cannot live at (or even near your means) because the chance of a change in your income is great. Bank the extra money and feel good doing it, because likely there will be a cessation of income in the future. If you graphed it, you'd find the average income of a pilot falls below the peaks and above the lulls. Planning accordingly goes a long way.

You are correct, it has always been very low, but regardless of that fact we must put an end to this practice.

Mr. Babitt testified in Congress today, and here is a short statement I copied from his testimony:

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Pilots also have a regulatory responsibility to not fly when they are not fit, including being fatigued. Thus, while the carrier schedules and manages pilots within these limitations and requirements, the pilot has the responsibility to rest during the periods provided by the regulations. The FAA has long held that it is the responsibility of both the operator and the flight crewmember to prevent fatigue, not only by following the regulations, but also by acting intelligently and conscientiously while serving the traveling public. This means taking into consideration weather conditions, air traffic, health of each flight crewmember, or any other circumstances (personal problems, etc.) that might affect the flight crewmember’s alertness or judgment on a particular flight.

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Mr. Babitt stated it.. the pilot has a responsibility to rest. So pilots are not supposed to be working but rather resting. With first year wages (and all FO wages for that matter) being so low, how can one sustain a living without a second job? You would have to either become a 'subsidized pilot' or not adhere to an FAA interpretation of what your supposed to do on your day's off.