Dumb question from a dumb guy.
 

I wasn't around long enough before the furlough to get everything really figured out so sorry if this sounds like a stupid question. Does every airfare involve at least one segment on the mainline? For instance, if I am going from A to B to C, am I guarenteed at least one mainline leg? Would it be possible to buy a ticket on AA, CAL, DAL, or UAL and fly A to B to C on nothing but regionals?

Of Course. I will take it a point further. Yo can fly from country-country-country and fly only on regionals.

Toronto, Canada- Houston, US- Puerto Vallarta, Mexico.

All on a 50 seat RJ

Welcome to the future

How would you know? You're in jail.

Absolutely it’s possible. In fact many people encounter this regularly. You could be flying on CAL from ORD to Nassau Bahamas and fly ORD-CLE then CLE-NAS all on ExpressJet, or ORD-CLE on CHQ, then CLE-NAS on XJT. Or you could be going from Flint, MI to Miami and take Commutair from FNT-CLE then ExpressJet from CLE-MIA. The possibilities are endless.

I know with Midwest in the end most of the flying was/is regional’s so it was very common for customers to only fly on SkyWest or CHQ. You could travel on United or Delta and see every one of their regional’s on a trip across the country without ever touching mainline. Its kind of a shame what the industry has become.

Sadly, with the advent of the 70+ "Regional Jets," more and more people are doing thier travels entirely on regional carriers. You can fly A to B to C and never actually fly on the real carrier.

Thanks guys. Makes sense. Like I said, I wasn't on the line long enough to ever think about that. It had never crossed my mind until my much more intelligent girlfriend asked me that and I didn't have an answer. That's nothing new.

The problem is not the 70 seat RJ's...they do make economic sense for small markets and to add frequency (pax convenience) to larger markets. Some places you can get a flight every hour or two, all day long.

The problem is the scope that allows them to be outsourced.

Yes, it can happen. To get it to do it, you need to have very specific travel dates and times, so that the WOPPER has no choice but to put you on Regional-Regional. If you give it enough freedom, it will find something to flow you from/to a mainline flight.

Exactly, and as more "regionals" get E190's there will be a shift as more legacy/mainline carriers pattern after Midwest and become little more than the online booking source for name/brand recognition of their subcontracted routes.

What is scary is the fact that you can go travel from a major hub-connect through major hub- to major hub all on regionals.

Recently I went CLE-ATL-IAH: All on CRJ's. Shuttle doing IAH-ORD: I think alot of people can plan on a career at the regionals. That is the funny thing, all the young low time fo's I see out there that tell me what major they will work at in the near future. Hate to be negative nancy like everyone else on this forum, but very few of those major jobs will exist 10 years from now. CHEERS:D

I LOL'd in my pants.

Sadly, I had to think about that for a minute. Then a lightbulb went off in my head and I looked at the avatar.:D

No...

If you buy a ticket to go from AEX-CLL via IAH, the IAH-CLL segment will be on a 777.

You were right, it was a stupid question.

No, Colgan took the 777 of the IAH to CLL run, they thought it would be better to use a narrowbody, so now they use 757's 4X a day

I've had a passenger comment to me while in the flightdeck of a A319 "Oh, one of these small planes, huh?".

I guess the 747 she usually was accustomed to was down for MX.;)

At least she didn't ask if a plane this small is safe.

Another even DUMBER question/request
 

Hello all -

I hope this is the best place for this post. I am a relatively new member with this being my first post.

I am 46 years old, just lost my construction company and am basically starting over. I have been flying about 5 yrs and just got all my ratings (CFI,CFII,MEI) and am trying to get into the industry for a career change. Let me preface this with the fact that I am well aware of the crisis we are in and have a LLOOOOONG road ahead of me. Luckily my wife is going to nursing school and since she's 9 yrs younger - she can make the money for a while. Also, I have taught every "hobby or passion" I have ever done, and I like the idea of always learning and continued education. I would have probably been a CFI even if I didn't have to time build.

Anyway, enough of the intro....my question is this. I have been trying to educate myself with this industry and all of it's intricacys. I read several threads and am rather overwhelmed at all the things to learn. I thought I had to learn abreviations for my pilot certs....for *&^* sake, I can't always seem to follow everything. Can someone give me some help with threads or things to read about: how the union works, why it sucks or doesn't suck, who the key players are, why they suck or don't suck, who are the good/bad airlines and why, what is "scope" and why is it going down the toilet, RJ vs. Major or legacy, how many seats???, why are they bad/good etc. You get the idea.

This is only the tip of the iceberg. Is there somewhere I can learn the HUGE amount of lingo and jargen without reading every thread in this whole forum. Books or articles would be apreciated too.

Again, I apologize in advance for the long rambling question, but the bottom line is...I LOVE to fly, always have ... always will, and I want to make educated decisions on the issues that will effect my AND your futures.

Ok - I'm done.

Greg Patelzick
CFII / MEI / AGI / IGI
Tailwheel

You are going to have to read read and read if you want to know how things work. There is currently no "Airline Lingo for Dummies" book on the market.

If you are truly into this for a hobby/career you should want to read posts on these forums, how else will you learn?

Read all you can by the forum member SkyHigh, he paints a great happy image of the industry

Oh...one more thing. Dont put CFII/MEI/AGI/IGI/Tailwheel after your name...kind of lame. There you go, first lesson on me.

As you have previously learned from F.O.I. knowledge cannot be poured into your head. You have time on your hands, go through all the posts, and the aviation world will be opened for you, bit by bit. And I agree with O.J., the glove dont fit.....

You should write one to help pay off the lawsuit you lost....LOL:D

Very True, If Skyhigh cant motivate you to keep working hard and become an airline pilot, Noone can....:eek:

ALPA was founded by a group of pilots in the 20's b/c pilots were getting killed @ a high frequency, thus the motto of ALPA "Schedule with Safety". 1/2 of the pilots who founded ALPA later died flying. Since then, ALPA has been the industry leader in promoting safety and pilot interests. Over the past 20 years, the pay and Quality of Life (QOL, that's an important acronym) of the profession has gone downhill. Airlines used to be all 'major' airlines, like Delta and United. Now, Delta and United farm out as much of their flying as possible to lower cost contractors, the 'regionals'. Scope is what protects your flying (Delta seniority list pilots flying Delta flying, rather than Commair pilots flying Delta flying). ALPA has taken criticism for some of the leadership decisions they have made, particularly the Collective Bargaining Agreement (CBA, good acronym there) decisions made that allowed Regional Jets (RJ's) to be flown by 'regional airlines' rather than 'major airlines'. At the time, the 'major' airline offered higher pay to the Delta pilots in exchange for giving up 'scope' on the RJ's (follow me?). Little did ALPA know, RJ's would get bigger and end up accounting for 50% of all flights in the US. RJ pilots are paid less than 'mainline' pilots to do pretty much the same thing, so RJ's keep getting bigger, and 'regional airlines' keep growing. The problem? Most 'regional' pilots want to be 'mainline pilots'. 'Mainline is shrinking, but there's now more regional pilots (b/c the regionals are growing) who all have the same goal, but, there's now less 'mainline' pilot positions. Thus, every 'regional' takes lower and lower wages (whipsawing each other, as well as 'lowering the bar', a proverbial bar that each CBA should exceed, called 'pattern bargaining') so that their airline can grow, they can upgrade to Captain (CA), and then apply to mainline, hoping that they get picked. ALPA's big issues now are safety (as it has always been) and bettering the pilot profession. This is a tough position, b/c ALPA represents both regional AND mainline pilots, thus some pilots feel that ALPA has a conflict of interest. The Teamsters is the other main union, but they don't primarily represent pilots, so their national clout on issues is HUGE, but not often used to promote pilot interests. All the other unions are 'in house' unions that represent only the pilots of that airline. US Airways, UPS, Southwest, JetBlue, and American all have in house unions.

The 'good' airline is a relative term. It's usually the one that give you the best QOL, the highest pay, retirement, and insurance (R&I), and is actually around when you retire (that's the hardest one). Traditionally, pilots want to work for whomever is the 'flavor of the day', the one with the best current pay (though not necessarily the best prospects). Who is that today? It's generally agreed that Southwest, Fed Ex, UPS, NetJets are the best today. Allegiant, the carrier that makes the most $ as a % of revenue - they don't pay as well, and fly from smaller airports to slightly bigger airports with older planes - they're less sexy, and thus are considered a 'backwater', though they're likely the best business as a pure aviation enterprise today. There are a million different reasons one particular airline is 'the best' for you, and it is a totally individual choice, but the herd would tell you that the 4 I mentioned are 'the best' b/c they currently pay the most (though all are great companies with solid business plans, though so was TWA, Pan Am and Eastern). The worst airlines? Hmm . . . . It's likely a regional though. The ones that that the most flack on the boards right now are Mesa (lower pay on jets, but getting sympathy b/c their corrupt management has likely bankrupted them. Jonathan Ornstein, JO, is their CEO, he's despised), Republic (they will now be flying 100 seat jets for low pay, and are the airline that is flying the biggest 'regional' jets, thus threatening 'mainline' growth and pilots future job prospects the most), and GoJet (they fly for United Express. The company that owns Trans States Airlines (TSA) essentially founded GoJet to 'end-around' American Airline's (AA's, and their pilot union, the APA) scope clause - all flying for American Connection must be done by an airline that operates jet with no more than 50 seats. TSA flew for AA, thus couldn't have 70 seat jets. But if you founded a new company, called it 'GoJets', then GoJets could fly the 70 seat flying for United Express. There's MUCH more to the GoJet story, and it usually gets pilots, particularly TSA pilots, so steamed that the thread has to be closed b/c of insults). The most despised of all - Gulfstream Airlines (not to be confused with Gulfstream Aircraft, which is a manufacturer, not an airline). GA runs a program where pilots with their CMEL-I can pay $25,000 to fly as a first officer (FO) for 250 hours. I'll let you read more about THAT on your own.


'Scope' is the contractual provision that requires that a pilot group fly a particular aircraft (as an example, Continental's scope is for all 50+ seat jet aircraft, meaning that any plane flying with Continental painted on its side that is a jet, and over 50 seat MUST be flown by CO pilots. CO has the best 'scope', b/c it has 'scoped out' the most aircraft as their own, thus unable to be contracted out to regionals). As discussed, regionals are growing, mainline is shrinking - and it's all b/c of scope (as seen by professional pilots), or $ (as seen by airline management, who love the situation, though it's now potentially compromising safety and getting aviation in the news and testifying before Congress and the NTSB more than the airlines would like).

An RJ used to mean a 50 seat jet, one that 'mainline' pilots gave up the scope on. Then it became a 70 seat jet. Now its any jet made by Canadair or Embraer that is flown under contract by a pilot group other than the name brand painted on the side. The smallest 'RJ' in the US is a EMB-135 (35 seats), and the largest is currently a CRJ-900 (86 seats) or a ERJ-190 (the EMB 190 is tough, b/c it's flown by JetBlue and US Airways - making it NOT and RJ - but now flown by Republic - making it an RJ). 'Legacy' is generally considered to be Delta (DL), American (AA), United (UA), Continental (CO), and US Airways (US). 'Major' is any airline that flies 100+ seat aircraft under their own brand, though the Dept. of Transportation (DOT) calls any airline with over $100 mil. in revenue a major.

The 2 must read aviation books would be

1. "Flying the Line" Vol. I and Vol. II. These are the history of ALPA.
2. "Hard Landing". This is the business history of commercial aviation.

Many pilots will include links to articles in their posts. Bookmark them and read them. Airline Pilot Central (APC) is part of what this forum runs under. There's tons of 'featured articles' on there. Most are written for professional pilots, but are more 'jargon free' than the forums (though some areas of the forum are made for pilots such as yourself. The 'regionals' is not one of them:D).

Bottom line - reading these forums will undermine your love of aviation. It's a business, and, while it's GREAT when the flightdeck door is closed and pilots fly planes, there's a good deal more to being a pilot than flying a plane, and those on this forum like to complain (myself included). Just take everything tounge-in-cheek, and read all you can.

"Safety, Regs, Common sense." In that order, always follow it, and you'll make a great professional aviator. Welcome to the forums.

-Sniper

(as you see below, even my signature is related to scope);)

Sniper...thanks for that great reply. I know it's going to take a lot of reading, but you definately gave me a head start. Any threads in particular you recommend ?

Thanks again,
Greg Patelzick

Great post Sniper. BTW I have always loved the Avatar.