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Old 06-18-2009, 07:09 PM
  #91  
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An FO check ride is to ATP standards therefore it is not their ability to fly the plane that prevents them from having an ATP it is only flight time. If you have a good attitude and are safety minded you will be a good FO.
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Old 06-18-2009, 08:18 PM
  #92  
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said the guy who was hired with 400 hours..
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Old 06-18-2009, 09:34 PM
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Originally Posted by YugoDriver View Post
An FO check ride is to ATP standards therefore it is not their ability to fly the plane that prevents them from having an ATP it is only flight time. If you have a good attitude and are safety minded you will be a good FO.
I can see what you're saying, but am, respectfully, in disagreement. Here's an example of why. What if they put two 250 hour multi-commercial pilots in the cockpit of a transport category aircraft; then loaded up the passengers, bags, etc., and sent them on their merry way? Would that be as safe? Just because an FO candidate is to perform the maneuvers and profiles to ATP tolerances in a sim, doesn't mean a 250 hour multi-commercial pilot is ready to serve as an ATP. I think the main thing is aeronautical decision making. 250 hour pilots rarely have the ADM skills required to perform their own jobs well, as FOs, let alone make critical decisions regarding the safety of the aircraft, passengers, and crew. Low time pilots can fly the aircraft well, on occasion, but decision making can be the difference between a successful flight, and an accident or incident. There are many more safety factors than just ADM, but that is one example of how lower time pilots can differ from higher time pilots. Flight time doesn't guarantee a safer pilot, but it makes it much more likely, in my opinion. I can give specific examples of what I've personally seen on the line, if requested.
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Old 06-18-2009, 10:10 PM
  #94  
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Originally Posted by JetJock16 View Post
Good Job Prater. I love it when pilots say, "what has ALPA done for me lately." We'll there you have it. It's there voice on Capitol Hill that's most important (the "big picture") and cannot be replaced.
It's a shame that it took what it did for it to happen, wouldn't you say?

Originally Posted by JetJock16 View Post
Can you imagine what our lives would be like if ALPA wasn’t there to set these “suits” straight. No voice equals no future.
I'm pretty sure that you've said you were a "yes" voter, so it's not directed at you. But maybe it should be rephrased to something like this;

"Could you imagine what the lives of unionized carriers would be like if ALPA wasn't there, and the benefit that NON UNION/NON ALPA/COAT TAIL RIDING carriers get from it?
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Old 06-19-2009, 04:37 AM
  #95  
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Originally Posted by exwaterski View Post
said the guy who was hired with 400 hours..
I always find it amazing that among the crowd on APC, that if you ask anyone their thought on what minimums should be, everyones answer is always some number below theirs. Whenever someone makes a factual statement someone has to bring it to this argument. TT always has and always will be an arbitrary number, Experiance is what matters, and ability will always vary among persons. Does anyone not realize that all pilots were at (insert arbitrary number here) TT once. Its about your training, experiance, and what you do with it and how you conduct yourself that matters. I honestly think people are starting to think "Oh lets get rid of anyone that was hired with X amount of hours (making sure they are safe with the number they pick), and mabye I can get my job back". I think that is very shortsighted, why dont we get behind some of the REAL issues that were brought up the other day, as a group and mabye just maybe we will all come out ahead....and just a little better off. Newsflash people, it never has been all about YOU. Prater made an excellant comment about getting more lower time pilots mentored during the career progression, so to the self absorbed High Timers, are you going to step up to the plate to make this better like you claim, or are you going to continue to just keep your "Us against them mentality" and continue with the chip on your shoulder? I mean I understand pilots by nature are Type 'A' personalities, but lets be real here guys...
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Old 06-19-2009, 05:31 AM
  #96  
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Originally Posted by nwa757 View Post
Outstanding:
http://commerce.senate.gov/public/_f...tionSafety.pdf
I am proud to be an ALPA member today, based on Prater's statements.

This is really good.
Wow. Was this Prater's opening statement, or just paperwork he shoveled at the Senators (to be duly filed in the round file can)?

This paper was so good I'm going to take pen in hand an write a personal letter of thanks to Prater. It's that good.

All the stuff on fatigue is well thought, presented, and argued. His emphasis on lack of "command training" is spot on. I NEVER thought I'd hear ALPA arguing for much the much more stringent and demanding EASA type written exams over the FAA exams, which are frankly laughable.

ALPA has really done it's homework with this one.

Last edited by deltabound; 06-19-2009 at 05:46 AM.
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Old 06-19-2009, 06:28 AM
  #97  
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Originally Posted by TPROP4ever View Post
TT always has and always will be an arbitrary number, Experiance is what matters, and ability will always vary among persons. Does anyone not realize that all pilots were at (insert arbitrary number here) TT once. Its about your training, experiance, and what you do with it and how you conduct yourself that matters.
You are correct. TT is just a number and experience is what matters. But I ask you this, what experience is a person with 250 hours bringing with them to the right seat???

You are also correct that I was once a pilot with x hours. The difference is that when I had 250 hours, I was flight instructing. When I had 500 hours, I was a photographer and was flying the plane when the pilot let me. When I had 1000 hours, I was flying a turbocharged light twin all around the country. I was still doing that at 1500 hours. It wasn't until I had ATP mins that I was actually flying passengers around. I brought 1500 hours of PIC experience with me to the airline.

I am not trying to start a "my hours are better than your's" argument, though I am sure that is what it will turn in to. All I ask is that everyone who reads this do two things for me, especially those of you who were hired at low time.

First, think back to when you had 250 hours, and compare your skills, your knowledge, and your decision making to where you are now. Have you improved??? Do you think you are safer now???

Second, imagine if you had flown single pilot ops from the time you had 250 hours until you had 1500 hours, then entered the airlines. Do you think that you would be an even better pilot than what you are currently??? Do you think that your skills, your knowledge, and your decision making would be improved over what they are now???

If your answer is no to any of these questions, then I don't want you flying my airplane. If you think that showing up to a plane with your weather printed and your flight plan done for you, then watching the autopilot fly you to your destination earns you the same experience as planning the flight yourself and hand flying, then I don't want you flying my airplane.

I still learn everyday. I know that I can be better and I strive to be. I want the people flying with me to have the same attitude. If you aren't learning, you're doing something wrong.

Last edited by SrfNFly227; 06-19-2009 at 06:37 AM. Reason: Clarity
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Old 06-19-2009, 08:42 AM
  #98  
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Originally Posted by TPROP4ever View Post
I always find it amazing that among the crowd on APC, that if you ask anyone their thought on what minimums should be, everyones answer is always some number below theirs. Whenever someone makes a factual statement someone has to bring it to this argument. TT always has and always will be an arbitrary number, Experiance is what matters, and ability will always vary among persons. Does anyone not realize that all pilots were at (insert arbitrary number here) TT once. Its about your training, experiance, and what you do with it and how you conduct yourself that matters. I honestly think people are starting to think "Oh lets get rid of anyone that was hired with X amount of hours (making sure they are safe with the number they pick), and mabye I can get my job back". I think that is very shortsighted, why dont we get behind some of the REAL issues that were brought up the other day, as a group and mabye just maybe we will all come out ahead....and just a little better off. Newsflash people, it never has been all about YOU. Prater made an excellant comment about getting more lower time pilots mentored during the career progression, so to the self absorbed High Timers, are you going to step up to the plate to make this better like you claim, or are you going to continue to just keep your "Us against them mentality" and continue with the chip on your shoulder? I mean I understand pilots by nature are Type 'A' personalities, but lets be real here guys...
I, respectfully, disagree with a few of your points. In my opinion, TT and hours aren't completely, 100%, arbitrary. To go along with your point, though, I do think there is a very small likelihood that someone with 250 hours could, theoretically, have better experiences than someone with 1500 hours. But, when looking at averages and probability, where do you believe the averages lie? I would say that, on average, a person with 1500 hours has more experience, and better experiences than someone with 250 hours. I have never personally seen anyone with 250 hours who was a better pilot, and made better decisions than someone with 1500 hours. Is it possible? Yes. But, when making regulations, you need to base it off of your average 250 hour pilot, and your average 1500 hour pilot; not the extremely rare 250 hour pilot, who has had some really valuable experiences, and the extremely rare 1500 hour pilot, who has not had a lot of valuable experience. On top of that, I don't think a 250 hour pilot's experiences could be valuable-enough, within that small amount of flight time, to be a safe first officer in a 121 cockpit. Maybe safe-enough for normal operations. But, definitely not in all situations, and especially when the poop is hitting the fan. I know I wasn't even close to being ready at 250 hours, and I did everything I could to gain valuable experiences, flying across the country numerous times in extremely challenging situations, etc. Now, when I take off on a contaminated runway, in hard IMC, in a mountainous environment, I ask myself, "Am I ready to handle this if I lose an engine at V1?" If I was back at 250 hours, the answer would be "heck no!" Just my thoughts.

Last edited by 1900luxuryliner; 06-19-2009 at 09:32 AM.
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Old 06-19-2009, 08:51 AM
  #99  
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The senator who said he was 23 with a fresh bar license and didn't know squat was quite right. I am about to earn my CPA (backup career) and can say truthfully that I don't know s#@*! right now. It'll take a few years of DOING it to get it.
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Old 06-19-2009, 09:34 AM
  #100  
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Originally Posted by 1900luxuryliner View Post
I, respectfully, disagree with a few of your points. In my opinion, TT and hours aren't completely, 100%, arbitrary. To go along with your point, though, I do think there is a very small likelihood that someone with 250 hours could, theoretically, have better experiences than someone with 1500 hours. But, when looking at averages and probability, where do you believe the averages lie? I would say that, on average, a person with 1500 hours has more experience, and better experiences than someone with 250 hours. I have never personally seen anyone with 250 hours who was a better pilot, and made better decisions than someone with 1500 hours. Is it possible? Yes. But, when making regulations, you need to base it off of your average 250 hour pilot, and your average 1500 hour pilot; not the extremely rare 250 hour pilot, who has had some really valuable experiences, and the extremely rare 1500 hour pilot, who has not had a lot of valuable experience. On top of that, I don't think a 250 hour pilot's experiences could be valuable-enough, within that small amount of flight time, to be a safe first officer in a 121 cockpit. Maybe safe-enough for normal operations. But, definitely not in all situations, and especially when the poop is hitting the fan. I know I wasn't even close to being ready at 250 hours, and I did everything I could to gain valuable experiences, flying across the country numerous times in extremely challenging situations, etc. When I take off on a contaminated runway, in hard IMC, in a mountainous environment, I ask myself, "Am I ready to handle this if I lose an engine at V1?" If I was back at 250 hours, the answer would be "heck no!" Just my thoughts.
I actually agree with some points, however you went way beyond the depth of what I was getting at. I was making the point that the way things are now older pilots should take and mentor the next batch (low time or not), they are already here to stay, so rather than arguing numbers we should work together. The fact is at the time all the low time guys (right or wrong) came in legally, and within standards set by the FAA. If that needs to change so be it, thats for the FAA to argue. I still strive to learn everyday, and challenge myself to continue to be the best I can be, and we all should regardless of total time. ( that is why I referred to TT as an arbitrary number, I think attitude and willingness to be even better than the last flight are just as important to safety.)

Last edited by TPROP4ever; 06-19-2009 at 09:48 AM.
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