SkyHigh

The position of FO is supposed to be as an apprentice. If they now are expected to have the skills and experience as a captain then they need captain wages.

SKyhigh

SkyHigh

Experience and guidance.

I don't think that regional pilots are inferior to anyone. They have a different job is all. Regional pilots usually get up earlier and work later flying as many as 9 legs a day in small under powered planes into small airports often using non-precision approaches.

Regional pilots also get paid much less for working harder and have to endure worse conditions like crummy hotels and criminal work rules. Put any pilot in those conditions and they will be at risk.

Skyhigh

BoilerUP

You can receive a full type on an airplane and yet still not be fully captain qualified (at least per 121 because of the line check requirements).

The additional requirements for someone to obtain a full PIC type rating aren't that much greater than an SIC check (I believe they are only a circling approach and a no-flap landing, but not 100% sure of that). Additionally, thousands of pilots every year obtain their ATP via a dual ATP/type rating checking event.

Given the strong argument that can be made for having two ATPs who are fully type-rated in the cockpit of a transport-category airplane, and how little additional work would be required, it only makes sense that pilots completing their initial newhire simulator training be required to have both an ATP and a full type rating in the plane they will be flying prior to the start of IOE.

DeltaPaySoon

Until there isn't enough time, or altitude, to embrace the "tree". Then you need the attributes that only QUALITY training and genetic makeup give you.

THAT is the difference between someone that needs to be up front and someone that has a uniform on.

At least in my mind, there is a very large number of individuals in cockpits that don't have those abilities.

And for that, I blame the FAA. I'm very hopeful that Mr. Babbitt is able to make headway on some of these issues.

FlyJSH

That is SOOO wrong.

Apprentice:
1. One bound by legal agreement to work for another for a specific amount of time in return for instruction in a trade, art, or business.
2. One who is learning a trade or occupation, especially as a member of a labor union.
3. A beginner; a learner.


Journeyman:
1. One who has fully served an apprenticeship in a trade or craft and is a qualified worker in another's employ.
2. An experienced and competent but undistinguished worker.


Master (used in reference to a trade):
A worker qualified to teach apprentices and carry on the craft independently.


In multi pilot crew flight, the terms roughly equate to:
Apprentice: any pilot who has not achieved the certificate or rating he/she is trying to get.
Journeyman: an FO through junior (or high-mins) CA
Master: Senior CA or Check airman

An FO is expected to be fully qualified to:
To work jointly with the CA in the operation of the aircraft during normal, abnormal, and emergency situations
To challenge the CA at anytime there is a question of safely or legality
To safely complete a flight should the CA become incapacitated.



An FO should NOT be LEARNING how to fly, learning company policy, nor the regs. He IS gaining experience.... as is the CA.... as should EVERYONE who continues to work.

KingAirPIC

HA! Tell that to the 20,000 hour widebody FO at any of the Legacy airlines.
... Seriously, I would like to see that. Mr. 50 year old 747 FO "apprentice" been in the biz for probably 30 years. Come on.

KingAirPIC

Good points sir. But what about the Senior 777 FO who could be a 320 CA?
Nevermind, these debate are pointless.

FlyJSH

Point taken. The thrust of my post was an FO is (or at least should be) a fully qualified crew member.

If we were to continue the FRIENDLY debate, to be a MASTER of of the trade, he/she must be the Master of the vessel. I, for example, have been the master of several aircraft under 125000, but as the FO of my current aircraft, I consider myself a journeyman.

Ultimately, the tradesmen terms do not fully translate into modern aviation. I only was trying to say an FO IS NOT a student pilot.

KingAirPIC

100% agree with you. Train to the same standard and don't treat the first officer like a student. I know the company I work for does. Weekly letters saying how we need to hold the hands of FOs. A lot of FOs have been at the company longer than some of the junior CAs.
However, I'm guessing some of the 500 hour wonders when hired at their respective companies did need a lot of hand holding. I hope we never see that again.