Why couldn't we get this over here?
 

With all the talk on Regional pilot salaries.... Other countries have a government backed minimum amount a pilot can earn. Why in the heck can't we have this over here?


http://www.afap.org.au/files/RROI226...0GA%20AFAP.pdf

slippery slope
 

We all agree we are horribly underpaid. I know this personally as I work at Commutair. Our pay scale is a laughable. Do we really want the government involved in setting salaries? Sometimes it is necessary to look beyond our own issues and at the big picture. What direction is America heading? Do we want to move down the road toward such a huge federal government that it literally sets our salaries? Should there be a federally sanctioned minimum wage for every profession?

Something has to be down about pay and working conditions in our industry but i'm not sure having the government setting pay rates is the way to go. Perhaps updating or scraping the RLA might be a good start. Let us get paid for the actual time we work.

They've got a contract, you've got a contract. And they pay less for dues. But I don't think it's government backed anymore than your ALPA/Teamster contract is.

Beech nut is right. Exactly right. We will see no improvement whatsoever until the RLA is history. Simple as that.

Its called capitalism, and anything in this country (such as the RLA) that will impede on the "shareholder's pocket" and lean on the side of labor will simply never fly in this country, GREEED

I shall leave you with a quote from a Mr. Abraham Lincoln

Labor is prior to, and independent of, capital. Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if labor had not first existed. Labor is the superior of capital, and deserves much the higher consideration.

Until we get back to this type of mentality, it will be more of the same my friends

The Fair Labor and Standards Act has established federally mandated minimum wages since 1938; the government has been doing this for a while and there are many industry specific minimum wage laws. setting a minimum pilot wage is certainly not off the table nor should it be.

I strongly believe in a free market, however it is not perfect. One of the greatest injustices of Capitalism may in fact be the U.S. airline industry. Natural market forces exist which serve to do no more than further deteriorate this industry. It's known as the "race to the bottom." Sure, the public is served with lower prices and a better product (in theory) and those that can't fill this need and survive the competition are driven out. The problem is, you can't wait for the airplane crashes to discover the bad business. The industry has always been heavily regulated and always will be- natural economic forces undermine safety at the aim of meeting the bottom line. Colgan flight 3407 is bringing to light many of the economic issues in this industry which are only getting worse.

I in fact don't know a single person (read: consumer) who objects to the idea of paying $5-$10 more per ticket to insure their pilot is being compensated sufficiently to at least check in at a hotel for rest without having to sweat the financial consequences. The problem here is that no single airline can make this move without creating a competitive disadvantage for themselves. A change in rest rules and more stringent pilot training requirements (read: regulation) may serve to naturally force wages up, or a mandated wage will eliminate that competitive disadvantage because everyone will be forced to raise fares together. And at the expense of what? American capitalisim? I don't think so. What I see as a result is what Cpt. Prater of ALPA called, "The best safety device on any airplane - a well trained, well rested, and highly motivated pilot."

Pretty funny how 1. Training (read: expensive) 2. Rest (read: less means more productivity) 3. Motivation (read: good pay and a job at the majors!)
-All continue to be undermined in this industry in order to meet the bottom line. I'm not making this stuff up.

There is no simple bandaid for what we're dealing with here, this is an industry wide economic issue.

I beg to differ. If Priceline presented a consumer with two identical flights on airline A and B (who's safety track records are on par), where A's ticket costs $10 more than B's, but A's pilots are better paid and rested, I can almost guaruntee that most, if not all, would go with airline B. Heck, I had a pax once who lived in San Francisco, purchase a ticket to Boston via OAK-LAX-BOS, instead of SFO direct BOS. OAK flight went out late, misconnected, and then screamed bloody murder. I asked why they didn't buy the direct ticket, and the response was they saved 5 DOLLARS by connecting out of Oakland. They probably spent 10 dollars more on gas to save 5 on the airline ticket. And then much more than that on a hotel for the night because of the misconnect. Point being, I think people could give a rat's ass about anything else but the price of their airline ticket.

I agree with you 100%. The issue is that the flying public doesn't know of the issues affecting the regional airline industry. heck, most people don't know what a regional is. If a disclaimer was displayed before every ticket purchase, on the back of every ticket and next to the airworthiness certificate that read:

"Warning: This aircraft may read Continental on the outside but it is in fact operated by our regional partner, xxxx airlines, which is known to operate at a lower level of safety than said airline. The pilots of this aircraft are not guaranteed to be optimally rested because of currently established work rules and they have significantly less experience than our pilots employed by said airline. Results may vary."

Watch what that does to demand. This is the reality and it is just coming to light in the consumers eyes as a result of 3407. People are shocked to know a pilot can be hired with as little as $16,000/year in compensation. Like I said in my previous post, we can't wait for the crashes to occur before the public will stop flying. The race to the bottom is unacceptable.

I think the difference between your scenario above and FlightCheck's post is that the Priceline offer would include a disclaimer that "Airline B's pilot are not well rested and have been flying at maximum duty hours for a few days now"
In your scenario above - I would ASSUME that both airline's pilots are well rested, well trained, and BOTH airlines will safely transport me from point A to B.
Maybe with the disclaimer attached a consumer might then pay the extra $5-10 for Airline A's flight.

USMCFLYR

Ahhhh...more talk of socialism.

So let's keep the price of the pilot off of Priceline, Expedia, etc. Have a federally mandated pilot fee. If passengers are happy paying fees for a few more inches of leg room or to bring more baggage, then they should be fine with paying a few more dollars for a competent flight crew that's well rested, trained, and experienced to do what they bought the ticket for in the first place: To safely travel from airport A to airport B.

Since when is this the governments job to levy a "pilot tax" on airfare. I am all for higher pay but this is nonsense.

The government has ZERO business meddling in the pay issue. Anytime the federal government interferes with private business we take one step further away from the free market capitalist society that made us great.

This is nothing like the Federal Minimum Wage act which is intended to determine a minimum standard of living for all people. Pilots make more than this so it is not an issue.

It is not the job of the public to subsidize pay in the private sector. This is like how the public feels obligated to tip a server because we know they make $2.25 an hour and live off tips. It is not our job to pay a servers salary and it should not be the public's job to pay our bills.

Re-Regulate the industry if you want this

While the Fed should not be involved in setting rates of pay, they should be involved in requiring that airlines price point their operations at levels that ensure maintenance and other necessary reserves.

Want minimum rates of pay for pilots? It should be based upon weight, max range and passenger load. It could easily be determined by ALPA. It SHOULD be supported by ALL ALPA carriers as a sign of true union solidarity; legacies supporting their brothers.

Don't hold your breath with ALPA. Prater's too busy taking it back.

To a time before flight...

The government can not have the direct say on a minimum a company can charge if we want to live in a free market society, it can not happen.

Again, if they want to determine prices they will have to re-regulate the industry and then the free market is gone. What the government can do is raise safety standards across the board and this will force all airlines to raise fares to cope with the costs, the ones that do not will fail. This is a way the government can manipulate the market without destroying the free market aspect of it.

As much as I want more pay for us all I do not want it at this cost. Letting the government control business practices pushes us towards a quasi-socialist state where the government may not control business outright but can control what it does.

(sorry if my english is difficult to read. It is not my first language)

The problems is that it has to be a "responsible Capitalism" for Capitalism to work.

In an Ideal scenario Capitalism works fine without rules but the Airline industry is not an example of great or healthy capitalism.

The airline industry race to the bottom.......mostly due to almost every airline operating with loss while trying to compete....(not the best example of capitalism)....has lost all the respect for pilot compensation, quality and safety and when pilots are paid less than fast food workers and are entitled to food stamps then it has gone too far.

When there is noone to help or represent the pilots against the lack of respect that the airline industry shows for them, for what they have invested and for their skills and for the fact that they risk their life every day at work then the goverment has to do something about it.

When a goverment gets involved and stops a sick part of the system it has nothing to do with socialism it is just being responsible.

Capitalism has to be regulated in the areas needed when it gets out of balance or it becomes destructive instead of being productive.

I work out of Atlanta and most flights in and out of there are oversold almost every day at every hour.

When airlines are flying at full capacity and losing money then the system model they are operating by is sick. How can that be good capitalism?

The only way to stop the airlines from lowering their ticket prices and tryng to balance it by cutting salaries, etc is by regulation as they are not showing they know how to be responsible.

People are paying today the same prices for flying than 1978 while the salaries has increased many times since.

So many in the airline industry has said it is imposible to raise price on tickets but they did incrase the fees for bags and other fees did they not?.

Did people stop flying? No. The decrease in flying has to do with the general economic situation of the country and nothing to do with the fees so if the airlines could put all these fees and people kept flying does it not tell that there would not be any problem in raising ticket prices?

Just an example.....imagine If prices would be raised by all airlines 100%. Say then that 50% would stop flying (that is a lot) as they would feel they would not be able to afford flying. That would generate the same amount in revenue than today but it would release 50% more in capacity and it would lower all types of cost in bag handling, all other ground based operations and the overworked air trafic system would suddenly get a break................

I am not saying ticket prices should be raised 100% but how is it that people can take a 100% increase in the gas price for their car but cannot take any increase in airline ticket prices? that must be bs......

also...........many of the regionals that are making a profit are buying other companies or have tons of cash in the bank but they claim at the same time that they cannot pay their pilots more than these poverty salaries........

Should that not be looked at by the goverment? Maybe regulating a minimum salary for 121 pilots is the only way many airlines would respect what a pilot should be paid.

When do you think its enough? when do you think the goverment has to stop all this?

[quote=The Juice;633354] What the government can do is raise safety standards across the board and this will force all airlines to raise fares to cope with the costs, the ones that do not will fail. This is a way the government can manipulate the market without destroying the free market aspect of it.

I bet ya this is what will happen in the near future. equally plausible would be a modification of duty time regs, resulting in pilots flying even less, thus making less money. Wages may have to be raised to attract new hires or prevent atrition.

Double your flight crew salaries in one easy step.

Tip Jar by the exit/galley/key location.

I abhor the tip jar. You made my cappulattebreve after I ordered it? thanks. It's expensive enough as it is and it may be fine or it may be lukewarm by the time I first sip it. you did your job. no tip for you.

You dry cleaned my pants, got them done on time, thankyou...I pay for them, and you want a tip also? no tip for you.

You filled my growler with fresh draft IPA and what? you want a tip also?
no tip....wait. it IS beer after all. Okay a buck extra for rinsing and wiping down the outside of the now beer stained growler.

And now....

You flew me from point A to point B at yada-yada thousand feet up in the sky at 8 miles a minute, you got us there safely, and you make HOW MUCH??? Where's the tip jar. cheers....oh, you're gonna need a larger jar.

remember guys, passengers don't set ticket prices, airlines do..............

Free market capitalism? Hasn't existed in the airlines, since the the air commerce act of 1926.

ZERO meddling 'in the pay issue'? The Railway Labor Act is the government telling us that our unions cannot organise work action if we feel we are not fairly compensated.

I think they've got the wool pulled over your eyes Juice - free market capitalism has never existed in the modern airline industry. Don't let them fool you into thinking any different.

So its one way or the other. Remove the regulations all around, let labor do their thing and management do theirs - That'd be free market capitalism.

Free market capitalism EXISTS because of the work and efforts of labor. In order for it to survive and thrive, it must pay employees wages and benefits that are an incentive for the employee to WANT to work more, harder or with greater efficiency with the goal being a higher standard of living.

The fallacy of so called free market capitalists is that they can ratchet down wages and benefits, denigrate working conditions and the like to increase market share and profit. While the idea works initially, in the long run it creates a demoralized workforce that works inefficiently and cares less about the quality of the product. The loss of quality of life also means less disposable income to contribute to the economic revenue stream.

The captalist, then sensing failure, seeks to improve the balance sheet by further cutting wages and benefits...and then is forced to shrink his economic model and business to survive...the " shrink to profitability" model.

Which has never worked. Pure free market capitalism is not a bad concept on paper. But add in human greed from management, and disciples who parrot the basic theory learned in college without the real world experience and you have the mess we have today.

These are the same theorists whom, upon finding their job downsized, or paychecks reduced, scream like stuck pigs about the injustices heaped upon them. The true believers stand up in advance and willingly give up their pay and benefits...of their own accord.

Any takers???

CRJ-50 FO minimum wage: $60,536 AUD

CRJ-50 CA minimum wage: $92,733 AUD

Now to be fair, the exchange rate is 1USD to 1.2667AUD, so:

CRJ-50 FO minimum wage: $47,797 USD

CRJ-50 CA minimum wage: $73,251 USD

Sounds like I need to get out of this country.... Maybe I am just different than most, but I support a pilot minimum wage as spelled out by the government. Perhaps something along the lines of what is spelled out in the pdf posted for Australian pilots.

i think you forgot to add "outside of the airline industry"

This is incredibly relevant and humorous observation.

How about not the government mandating this fee, but airline companies charging this fee and advertising the competence of their crew?

its not money its an (abusing)attitude
 

yeah........but at the same time it is not an issue of money at the regional level.

Most regionals have expanded their operation using tons of money in late years.

RAH has so much cash they are now even buying Frontier.

Skywest has almost 700 million cash in the bank but these companies claim they cannot pay the junior pilots higher salaries.

The money for higher salaries is already there.

It is the Regionals defending that they want to compete by being the cheapest operator (but making tons of money like RAH & SKYW) that claims they cannot pay more in salaries. BS!
If they make tons of money and are not willing to pay fair salaries to junior pilots then the goverment has to put a stop to it.

Pilot are forced to take these slavery jobs if the want to continue their career as that is for most the only way of getting the jet PIC needed to be able to move on. The regionals knows it and abuse it.

Exactly!

There is a number of jobs that do not play by the "free capitalism" or "free market" and should not. Pilots should be one of them. Pilot salary should not be like fuel cost that goes down and up as any traded instrument.

Pilot salaries should be a cost that can only be increased. Min salaries has to be regulated by the goverment as the companies refuse to pay fair salaries to junior pilots.

to say that demand & S. has to govern the pilot salary in a free market is bs.

Have you ever seen the doctors salary go down because suddenly there are more doctors than needed?

There has been many situation like that in different countries but never has the salary gone down for them.

I can give many more examples.

Don't forget
 

An airline is run by many different groups of people besides pilots. If the pilots get a pay raise then the flight attendants, mechanics, office people, rampers, gate agents and everyone else will also have their hands out. Then the aircraft leasing companies will get wise and upon time to renegotiate the rates then they too will be holding out for more money.

A simple $10 fare increase will rapidly become $100. Customers are barely holding on as it is.

Skyhigh

Pilots cannot be compared to FA, mecs, office people, rampers or gate agents but we do know that many of these are making the same or more than Junior pilots.

We are not talking about increasing the salaries for all pilots. Just for the junior pilots and that up to a fair level. The senior pilots has to stop with the attitude "If you raise for the junior pilots we want a raise". That is not going to work. The problem is the unfair low salaries for junior pilots and not the salaries for senior pilots.

You can tell any ramper, FA or gate agent what a Junior Pilot makes and ask them if they think its fair?

FA, rampers and gate agents would dream of being a pilot themselves but many would not believe junior pilots are paid that low and would accept without any problems pilots being paid much more than them.


That pax are barely holding on is bs. They are paying the same price for tickets than 1978. Nothing has gone down so much in the last 30 years as airline tickets. What use to be a luxury product can now be used by any trailer trash as if it was a bus. That is how cheap it is.
You can go to the Bahamas from FLL for $59

To say that people cannot afford more is funny. At the same time they can afford a 100% increase in gas cost for the cars or a 100% insurance home cost for their home like we got here in south Florida.

That airline ticket price has to be low is a myth that has been and is the destruction of the industry. Instead of selling quality to quality people the idea has gone to the other extrem and we are now selling volume to anybody as it is cheaper to fly than drive, take a bus, train or taxi.

People just find it funny that it is so cheap to fly.

If you cannot afford to pay what its right for flying (should be more than driving or taking a bus) then you should not fly.

The idea that everyone has to be able to afford flying is absurd and kind of an Idea from the former Sovjet Union. In a capitalist country a quality product is normally sold to those than can afford it. Why is it that airline tickets are sold to anybody as anybody can afford them?

Go to an airport and take a look at the pax. You will see that even Joe from the trailer park is flying.

The airlines put some fees on when the fuel went to the roof. Did that affect the amount flying? No. The decline in numbers are due to the economi of the country that generates less movement of people that needs to travel due to less work etc but has nothing to do with increased cost for flying.

Why?

Doesn't sound like it could be any worse for you, could it?

You might be surprised to know that in any profession for which there is a Federal employee doing the same type/class of work, there ALREADY is a standard wage.... it's the Federal Prevailing Wage Law and has been around for decades. It just doesn't apply to the private sector.

You finally made a statement that made sense. It was a mistake to Deregulate the airline corporations, while still regulating their unions. It tipped the scales to an unfair advantage.

I think this is exactly the point. The airline industry is far from free market as is.

When the industry got deregulated, then the RLA should have been thrown to the curb too. Otherwise giving managment free reign while keeping the handcuffs on the labor is absolute BS.

my $.02

Juice, while I respect and do agree with where you're coming from, I want to further elaborate on my point.

Government regulation of the airline industry should be limited to the FARs. But if the RLA is going to continue to remain in effect, keeping labor's hands tied behind their back (effectively regulating the collective bargaining process that has helped keep capitalism in check which has also made our country great) then why not have the government at least help out pilots a bit with pay?

I want the RLA to be thrown out or at least amended just as much as the next guy, and that would be preferred over government regulation of pilot salaries, but you don't hear our congressmen or union reps crying foul about it at these hearings.

And about the pilot fee, I realize it would probably never work. But with all the other fees for everything else, maybe you just might be able to pass it by some people.