Well, I am confused now… You want solidarity yet you think it’s ok for let’s say Gojet pilots to be taking jobs away from their TSA brothers and sisters? When Gojet was formed their whole premise was for the TSA Holdings management to circumnavigate dealings with the TSA union and while TSA pilots were being let go they were hiring to their Gojet unit… Where was the solidarity then?

I'm neither supporting nor knocking GJ on this thread, what I'm getting at is that they would either not exist right now or would have been brought about in a more kosher manner.

Well my airline does not belong to ALPA (IPA) so are we out? Also, if the NSL took effect I can guarantee you that all the pilots at those small operators would actively seek a membership in ALPA – would you tell them sorry, you’re just not important enough? :confused:

I would think you'd be welcome on the list, but like APA you would have the right to your own union. Seems like it might defeat the purpose of what we're talking about though. The smaller guys could vote the union in or vote not to get involved just like they can now. (Example: Colgan)

I’m sorry, I'm willing to listen and to discuss but I still think a National List is a horrendous idea… Not practical but also extremely unfair to those who researched/gambled/lucked out (whatever your preference) in choosing the ‘right’ airline for their long term career…

I just don't think it's necessary to kick a guy when he's down. "Sorry, you had bad luck, and I know you're 50 and not as likely to get hired anywhere else, but that's just too bad. Hope you like Mac n cheese... And don't worry about losing the house, apartments are cheap..." Why start at the bottom again after working so hard?

I’m fed up with subsidizing mortgages for those who bought houses they couldn’t afford… I know this is going to sound very cold but I do not think I should have to subsidize other pilots’ career progression if their airline goes out of business…

Similarly, if my company goes belly up a few years down the road I will not expect for you or anyone else to slow down your current progression (a.k.a. earnings, benefits, schedules, etc.) just because I had bad luck…

We're subsidizing mortgages for irresponsible people who bit off more than they could chew and lenders who gave out money like it was cool. Believe me, I'm not happy about that or the GM stuff either... I don't agree that this is the same issue. All that holds a union together is the members' commitment that they'll back each other. The reason we've sunk so low is that there are pilots willing to stiff other pilots so they can move up. They do this in the name of "career progression" and don't look back. I can certainly support a fellow union member if I know the same rules will apply to me if I need them.

I believe that having many airlines is good for the competition and for our job choices but so is having many unions…

Many Unions = Management's whipsaw opportunity. We see that in what's happening to the industry now.

Again, no harsh words intended, just my point of view. Something may very well happen to change my mind, but from where I sit, this doesn't look like a bad idea. Glad to hear you're still flying. (Glad to hear anyone's still flying)

I'm neither supporting nor knocking GJ on this thread, what I'm getting at is that they would either not exist right now or would have been brought about in a more kosher manner.

Could you please quote me one example where a National Seniority list exists and works as you advertise? Just one country? :confused:

I would think you'd be welcome on the list, but like APA you would have the right to your own union. Seems like it might defeat the purpose of what we're talking about though. The smaller guys could vote the union in or vote not to get involved just like they can now. (Example: Colgan)

So nice of you to let them in... :rolleyes:

I just don't think it's necessary to kick a guy when he's down. "Sorry, you had bad luck, and I know you're 50 and not as likely to get hired anywhere else, but that's just too bad. Hope you like Mac n cheese... And don't worry about losing the house, apartments are cheap..." Why start at the bottom again after working so hard?

I am NOT talking about kicking a guy when he’s down, you however ARE talking about subsidizing him/her with your own salary so he/she can get in front of you if he/she has more time in that type of aircraft…

If your upgrades gets delayed by lets say 5 years you’re talking several hundred thousand dollars in pay and retirement benefits lost because you didn’t feel like “kicking him/her down” – you seem to be ok with it but is your family (or future family) ok with that too? :confused:

I am all for supporting those who need help, when there was a threat of our junior pilots getting furloughed I and hundreds of my fellow union members stepped in and found a way to keep them on the property…

What you are talking about though is an enormous charity event to protect those who might lose their jobs if their airline folds… I would say, give them preferential interviews maybe but to let them slide in ahead of others just because they flew a similar airplane somewhere else? No way!

We're subsidizing mortgages for irresponsible people who bit off more than they could chew and lenders who gave out money like it was cool. Believe me, I'm not happy about that or the GM stuff either... I don't agree that this is the same issue. All that holds a union together is the members' commitment that they'll back each other. The reason we've sunk so low is that there are pilots willing to stiff other pilots so they can move up. They do this in the name of "career progression" and don't look back. I can certainly support a fellow union member if I know the same rules will apply to me if I need them.

I’m sorry but again I disagree with you. We all make a choice and then stick with it or try something else… It sucks to have to start all over again but that’s the price you pay for having so many choices...

Many Unions = Management's whipsaw opportunity. We see that in what's happening to the industry now.

Yeah, but last time I checked Fedex and UPS management didn’t necessarily combined their forces into a FedUPS management unit… Why should then our unions combine?

Again, no harsh words intended, just my point of view. Something may very well happen to change my mind, but from where I sit, this doesn't look like a bad idea. Glad to hear you're still flying. (Glad to hear anyone's still flying)

I understand; I enjoy the discussion…

More pro-union arguments from world-renowned economists. This is about the EFCA, which was an initiative which would have surely stimulated increased unionism:

Columbia University economics professor Jagdish Bhagwati is an ardent free-trader well-known for clashing with unions in his opposition to labor standards in trade agreements and his hostility to consumer campaigns against sweatshops. Yet he takes the view that "unionization should be thought of as a fundamental human right" and that we shouldn't turn away from such a principle just because of financial and economic crisis.

Then again, Bhagwati, who elaborates on his public support of EFCA in the current New Republic, isn't impressed with the economic arguments of EFCA's opponents. "I think that the scare about unions adversely affecting our efficiency and even discouraging investment is really hard to condone," says Bhagwati, a senior fellow in international economics at the Council on Foreign Relations. "There is surely no compelling evidence that [unionization] undermines efficiency at the level of the factory."

Joseph Stiglitz, a Nobel laureate in economics, goes even further than his Columbia colleague in his dismissal of the projected EFCA woes imagined by business: "The likely impact on wages in the medium term is relatively small, and higher-wage workers are more productive, so the net impact on their costs is even smaller." It is about control, he says: "Obviously—myopically—[employers] would like more bargaining power. But that's short-sighted because unionized workers will perform better." Indeed, a recent study comparing UPS, the single largest employer of Teamsters, and FedEx, a harsh union-buster, found that UPS had performed much better financially, with a return on equity that rarely falls below 20 percent. (Of course, businesspeople are never placated by such arguments because they rightly figure that even though unionization can inspire workers to be productive, the anxiety of rampant job insecurity and dearth of good employment options can do the same.) And Harvard University economist Richard Freeman has found no relationship between unions and firm solvency; thus there is no reason to fear that EFCA will put anyone out of business.

But surely the most compelling question for Americans at this moment is, What effect will EFCA have on the broader economy? Its opponents say it will prolong the depression—if some employers have to pay workers more, they'll hire fewer people. Some unions counter that the bill should be seen as stimulus; when low-wage workers are in a position to bargain for higher wages, they'll have more money to spend. There's one problem with both scenarios: Organizing and bargaining for higher wages, even under a reformed system, will take a while. Stiglitz says EFCA will neither help nor hurt our present economy: "[T]he likely time for it to have an effect is too slow, so [EFCA] is not germane to the current situation."

However, even though it isn't stimulus, in the longer run, Stiglitz says, EFCA is "very important to a robust three-to-five year recovery." One of the major causes of the current global financial crisis has been a "lack of aggregate demand" over time, he explains. Too many people lack spending power. Stiglitz isn't alone in this opinion; plenty of other economists—including Berkeley's Harley Shaiken—agree on the big picture: If more Americans could join unions, they'd have more money to spend, and the economy would be healthier in the long run.

AV8OR -

Like I said, I'm not an aviation industry guru, it's just my opinion that this would be a good system. I am also speaking of an ideal situation. The system we have now, which doesn't work, would theoretically work in an ideal situation. (Of course in an ideal situation management would behave ethically and we wouldn't need unions anyway, which is what this thread is about). I realize that there are many interests in a particular pilot group. This is true no matter how large/small the group. You can't really say that it wouldn't work because there are too many interests. What do we do now? We negotiate the best we can get that will keep as many people as happy as possible. Not sure of a country where this has been tried before, so I don't have an example of how it has worked (not including the USSR - a lot of things didn't work under that system).

I'm glad to hear that you guys went out of your way to keep pilots on the property in the face of a furlough. But if it's only a matter of looking out for yourself, why bother? (At Comair the FA's took part time to save other FA's jobs - some pilots would have done it but couldn't). Why bother? Taking part time will hurt you moneterily (?) and therefore you should tell the junior guy "Tough luck." For that matter, with this reasoning, nobody on this forum should have anything to say to GJ pilots - they're just getting ahead. What about crossing a picket line? You're just doing what's best for you and your interests, who cares about the guys walking? Why not jump over senior guys at your own airline? It's just what's best for you.... This would be the same seniority system we already employ, just on a great, big scale.

There is no ideal situation, but in light of the system that we've had, which does not seem to be working, this seems to be worth a shot. Management has learned how to get around the rules, so we need to update the rules. :D The RLA is a good example of an outdated principle or system. There has to be an absolute somewhere. You can't say "I'll support my pilot group but I don't care about United/Delta/American/Whoever guys." Next time it might be you. :eek: The government's certainly not going to improve anything, nor do I think they should. It is the responsibility of the pilots to improve things if they want them improved. (My vote's still out on Regulation. Used to think it was a good idea, now I'm thinking that if it were truly a free market, when an airline went BK it'd be gone, good riddance, let someone do it right next time. But then what happens to the pilots? Aaaahh. We have an NSL!)

That's all. I'd still be furloughed either way, NSL or not, so this is kinda academic, but...

Your turn.

AV8OR - Like I said, I'm not an aviation industry guru, it's just my opinion that this would be a good system. I am also speaking of an ideal situation.

Maybe we should create our own thread here… LOL

I am not an aviation guru either but believe the system you describe would be a horrendous system: not practical, confusing but most of all extremely unfair…

The system we have now, which doesn't work, would theoretically work in an ideal situation.

Au contraire - the system we have now works perfectly fine… Anyone can apply to any airline they want and hopefully if they pass the interview they will get hired… IF I don’t like what I see or think that my company doesn’t have a bright future I’m allowed to apply somewhere else… What you want is the best of both worlds, to keep your seniority while taking out any risks involved with going to a specific airline…

(Of course in an ideal situation management would behave ethically and we wouldn't need unions anyway, which is what this thread is about). I realize that there are many interests in a particular pilot group. This is true no matter how large/small the group. You can't really say that it wouldn't work because there are too many interests. What do we do now? We negotiate the best we can get that will keep as many people as happy as possible.

Well, don’t you think those “ many interests” details are pretty important? Like I said, when exactly can I get my NSL number? You said when I’m eligible for ALPA? Really? Well, what about those military guys/gals? Don’t they deserve a credit for their service in the military? What about cargo versus pax pilots? Some studies indicate that cargo pilots do not live as long as passenger pilots. If that’s true, shouldn’t we get a preferential treatment in obtaining that NSL number? Let’s call it the "cargo pilot affirmative action" to avoid freightdog discrimination, ok? ;)

Oh, while we are at it, how about all those folks flying drones in Afghanistan? When will you award them their number? I mean many of them will be looking for a civilian job once they get out of the military…

Not sure of a country where this has been tried before, so I don't have an example of how it has worked (not including the USSR - a lot of things didn't work under that system). I'm glad to hear that you guys went out of your way to keep pilots on the property in the face of a furlough.

Seriously doubt you’ll find it anywhere as it’s a system doomed to fail, just like the Russkys found out the hard way about their utopian society…

But if it's only a matter of looking out for yourself, why bother? (At Comair the FA's took part time to save other FA's jobs - some pilots would have done it but couldn't). Why bother? Taking part time will hurt you moneterily (?) and therefore you should tell the junior guy "Tough luck."

Well, we were helping our own… Nothing personal but pilots working for other airlines are not our own; in fact most of the time they’re our competitors…

I've participated in numerous money drives for pilots from other airlines when they dealt with huge medical bills, etc. but that’s different… That’s a voluntarily compassion, nothing wrong with that, in fact that’s a great thing to do.
However, to voluntarily give up hundreds of thousands of dollars in potential pay and benefits simply because you feel sorry for someone who lost his/her job is not a sign of compassion but of a self destructive behavior in my view…

For that matter, with this reasoning, nobody on this forum should have anything to say to GJ pilots - they're just getting ahead. What about crossing a picket line? You're just doing what's best for you and your interests, who cares about the guys walking? Why not jump over senior guys at your own airline? It's just what's best for you....

You lost me here; I read it a few times and still don’t know what you mean in this paragraph… You just described the worst of the worst behavior in aviation - not sure what's that got to do with a NS list?

This would be the same seniority system we already employ, just on a great, big scale. There is no ideal situation, but in light of the system that we've had, which does not seem to be working, this seems to be worth a shot.

youlostplane – please remember, I cannot share a seniority number with my competitor, that’s just insane…

I hope everyone will do wel but ultimately I want for my company to be the best and the most successful entity out there… How would that work if all of a sudden we got hundreds of new employees who just a few months earlier were working for our biggest competitor? Don’t you think they’d bring a very bad morale with them?

For example if all of a sudden the NSL brought hundreds of former Fedex pilots to UPS very soon they’d be demanding those ugly black leather jackets instead of our beautiful brown jackets… We can’t have that! :D (keedin’ purple drivers - I wish our jackets were black too)…

I’m desperately trying to see your point and to understand how this might work but the more I think about it the more insane it sounds…

One list for all pilots in the US? What the heck, are we a communist nation already or where is this mentality coming from? IF we create one list for all the pilots in the US, why not make it a global list? I mean seriously, don’t you feel sorry for the Al Italia, Air Zaire and Mozambique Airways pilots who lost their jobs? Why limit ourselves to the US only?

I take it you don’t feel much kinship with those pilots, correct? Well, why should that be any different here in the US - we ARE talking about competing airlines, right?


Management has learned how to get around the rules, so we need to update the rules. The RLA is a good example of an outdated principle or system. There has to be an absolute somewhere. You can't say "I'll support my pilot group but I don't care about United/Delta/American/Whoever guys." Next time it might be you.

The government's certainly not going to improve anything, nor do I think they should.

Really, then isn’t what you’re asking for in effect a semi-government solution? I don’t care who runs it, the effect will be the same – one list only… Should we start calling it the Mao’s Little Red List?

It is the responsibility of the pilots to improve things if they want them improved. (My vote's still out on Regulation. Used to think it was a good idea, now I'm thinking that if it were truly a free market, when an airline went BK it'd be gone, good riddance, let someone do it right next time. But then what happens to the pilots? Aaaahh. We have an NSL!) That's all. I'd still be furloughed either way, NSL or not, so this is kinda academic, but... Your turn.

I will be honest with you when I say this scares me… America is a nation of entrepreneurs, innovators and competitors… Now some people think that we don’t need to make independent decisions anymore, that we need to stop competing and instead we should all belong to this one union, work for this one huge company because that’ll take out all the risks of making a wrong choice…

Please don't take it the wrong way but it seems like our whole nation is becoming more and more socialistic in the way we do things... Makes me think of that article I read not too long ago where bright kids in high school who were doing very well in school were told to stop asking questions in class because it wasn't fair to the ‘slower’ student who couldn't catch up… Where are we heading as a nation when we choose the lowest common denominator? Again, I want to re-emphasize that the lowest common denominator in my view is the political correctness mentality which seems to control our society nowadays... It always has to be fair and equal yet often it does the exact opposite - the affirmative action or reverse discrimination being prime example... I fear that a NSL would create a new version of affirmative action; the ideas might be noble but the implementation would prove disastrous and unfair...

By the way, I want to make it clear that I’ve been against the idea of a NSL for a very long time, I felt this way when I flew a small turboprop for a regional airline and I feel the same way now that I fly a 75/76 for a cargo company… If my company fails tomorrow my opinion will not change… NSL is a socialist idea which in my book means it’s a bad idea…

Your turn Comrade... :D

PS. I found your airplane... LOL

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y10...picture063.jpg

Well, don’t you think those “many interests” details are pretty important? Like I said, when exactly can I get my NSL number? You said when I’m eligible for ALPA? Really? Well, what about those military guys/gals? Don’t they deserve a credit for their service in the military? What about cargo versus pax pilots? Some studies indicate that cargo pilots do not live as long as passenger pilots. If that’s true, shouldn’t we get a preferential treatment in obtaining that NSL number? Let’s call it the "cargo pilot affirmative action" to avoid freightdog discrimination, ok? ;)

Sure the many interests are important, but we still have our present system of voting on what most people think is most important. In a presidential election we do the same thing. Most electoral votes = new pres. I don't go around saying "He's not my president" because I voted for the other guy... Is the military in the union now? How would you unionize against the US government anyway? Not that they're lesser pilots, but if I got out of the military today and walked into civilian aviation, I'd start at the bottom, just like a guy fresh out of ERU. I respect all cargo pilots immensely. I know that there are cargo outfits out there that could stand some representation. Why put a barrier between the pilot that fly boxes or pax, though?

Oh, while we are at it, how about all those folks flying drones in Afghanistan? When will you award them their number? I mean many of them will be looking for a civilian job once they get out of the military…

Honestly not sure - are these guys certificated pilots or just trained by the military? I would be interested to find out.


For that matter, with this reasoning, nobody on this forum should have anything to say to GJ pilots - they're just getting ahead. What about crossing a picket line? You're just doing what's best for you and your interests, who cares about the guys walking? Why not jump over senior guys at your own airline? It's just what's best for you....

You lost me here; I read it a few times and still don’t know what you mean in this paragraph… You just described the worst of the worst behavior in aviation - not sure what's that got to do with a NS list?

To clarify - The point I was trying to make is that if you use the "looking out for my own" rationale, that's what the pilots that engage in these activities are doing. GJ pilots are looking out for GJ guys - why should they care how much TSA guys cry? Same for scabs. If I've been stepped on by a particular facet of the contract that senior guys voted on, why should I care if they go out on strike? I'll just fly and get the good schedules while they're picketing. (I would NEVER do this by the way, I'm just trying to make a point.)

Well, we were helping our own… Nothing personal but pilots working for other airlines are not our own; in fact most of the time they’re our competitors…


However, to voluntarily give up hundreds of thousands of dollars in potential pay and benefits simply because you feel sorry for someone who lost his/her job is not a sign of compassion but of a self destructive behavior in my view…

youlostplane – please remember, I cannot share a seniority number with my competitor, that’s just insane…

I hope everyone will do wel but ultimately I want for my company to be the best and the most successful entity out there… How would that work if all of a sudden we got hundreds of new employees who just a few months earlier were working for our biggest competitor? Don’t you think they’d bring a very bad morale with them?

Again - see above argument about scabs, etc. I don't see CAL/AA/Eagle pilots as me "competition," they are fellow pilots. Under an NSL they would be "my own."

One list for all pilots in the US? What the heck, are we a communist nation already or where is this mentality coming from? IF we create one list for all the pilots in the US, why not make it a global list? I mean seriously, don’t you feel sorry for the Al Italia, Air Zaire and Mozambique Airways pilots who lost their jobs? Why limit ourselves to the US only?

I DO see your point here and agree... On the other hand, use British Airways as an example - what BA pilot in their right mind would want anything to do with the work rules and pay we have in the US? Also, according to a friend from the UK, (you know, the old a friend of a friend of a guy that used to know someone's uncle....), seniority over there is transferrable and it seems to work out ok.

I take it you don’t feel much kinship with those pilots, correct? Well, why should that be any different here in the US - we ARE talking about competing airlines, right?

The competing airlines argument is the most convincing I've heard so far, but are we really competing aginst other pilots? I mean, come on - we all need to know what we're doing, fly safely and get the pax/boxes there in one piece. We can do that for anybody, and if the qol and pay was the same across the board, would it really matter who? I mean unless someone was in love with the idea of flying for CAL or Delta, what's the difference? If a 76 driver gets paid the same with the same qol no matter where he flies, whats the difference?

I will be honest with you when I say this scares me… America is a nation of entrepreneurs, innovators and competitors… Now some people think that we don’t need to make independent decisions anymore, that we need to stop competing and instead we should all belong to this one union, work for this one huge company because that’ll take out all the risks of making a wrong choice…

If UPS folds when you're 50 you'll be scared then, too. Especially with NO prospect of going anywhere else for comparable pay and bennies. Hope the house and boat are paid for. Don't say it couldn't happen, It has happened to a few "unsinkable" airlines. We certainly do need to make our own decisions. You decide to get car or life insurance because anything could happen. This is the same thing. I don't think the government needs to do ANYTHING for an NSL to come about, why would they need to get involved? (Not that they wouldn't get involved, but they wouldn't NEED to.)

Maybe we do need our own thread...:) Anyway, I was gonna see what a few more experienced guys thought about this, but no one's around tonight. Yay - night shift! I enjoy the debate. Happy flying. Thanks for finding my plane. I definitely miss not living near the shore anymore. CVG's land locked.

I think the best way to approach this subject is to take an objective look at the history of labor unions in the economy and the effects they have had on business. I also think one would have to look at this strictly from a business perspective as I believe the original question had to do with their perceived negative impact on business.

Of course, this may be impossible to answer as an objective analysis may lead to a subjective conclusion. i.e., too many "what ifs" in the equation. This may be why some economists are for them and why some are not.

I think it is safe to say that they have both positive and negative attributes associated with them. While some industries are able to survive quite well with them, one could probably argue that other industries were essentially all but eliminated because of them. I think the merits of the discussion are too broad to arrive at a definitive yea or nay.

I will also add that business ethics (or lack thereof) have necessitated organized labor. The intent of greed in many cases is to fatten the bottom line, but a by-product of that greed is to force a labor force to organize into a union.

Your understanding of basic economics is clearly lacking and completely disconnected from the real world.

Exactly! So, we are brought to the point where the possibility of objectivity is questionable, because the argument can be viewed from different angles; from the angle of looking at the direct impact unions have on business profits. Or, from the angle of viewing the broader economic impact of unionization, which indirectly impacts business profits on a more system-wide level. This is why we are in the realm of opinion and belief; not in the realm of anyone being able to say "his wife is right". Or, "his wife is wrong". Just my opinion and belief....:p

Sure the many interests are important, but we still have our present system of voting on what most people think is most important. In a presidential election we do the same thing. Most electoral votes = new pres. I don't go around saying "He's not my president" because I voted for the other guy... Is the military in the union now? How would you unionize against the US government anyway? Not that they're lesser pilots, but if I got out of the military today and walked into civilian aviation, I'd start at the bottom, just like a guy fresh out of ERU. I respect all cargo pilots immensely. I know that there are cargo outfits out there that could stand some representation. Why put a barrier between the pilot that fly boxes or pax, though?

I see, so we need to ‘protect’ those who lost their jobs flying for airline A but disregard those pilots who happen to be flying for very small operators… Actually if you’re going to use our electoral system I’ll argue that our electoral system protects the small states… If it wasn’t for that system most of our presidents would probably come from California or for New York… Therefore I would argue that IF you’re going to create a NSL for pilots then ALL pilots making money from flying should be allowed to join…

Also, you say that you don’t want to create divisions between cargo and passenger pilots… Well, I thought you felt it was unfair that a pilot who’s let’s say 50 has to start all over again? IF so, shouldn’t that pilot move up a few extra numbers since in the last 25 years he flew nights mainly and now might have fewer years to make up for his/her lost income? I hope you realize I’m being sarcastic, I simply want to show you that the idea of a NSL is doomed to fail because it’s a flawed idea…

Besides, you talk about avoiding divisions? Just wait to see the divisions a NSL would create – the age 65 divide would be nothing comparing to your “affirmative action for pilots”…


Honestly not sure - are these guys certificated pilots or just trained by the military? I would be interested to find out.

Does it matter? Who are we to determine if they’re or are not worthy of joining it? After all, it’s about fairness, right? ;)


To clarify - The point I was trying to make is that if you use the "looking out for my own" rationale, that's what the pilots that engage in these activities are doing. GJ pilots are looking out for GJ guys - why should they care how much TSA guys cry? Same for scabs. If I've been stepped on by a particular facet of the contract that senior guys voted on, why should I care if they go out on strike? I'll just fly and get the good schedules while they're picketing. (I would NEVER do this by the way, I'm just trying to make a point.)

GJ pilots were not looking out for GJ pilots because originally there were no GJ pilots – it was an airline created to kill jobs at TSA as a punishment for TSA pilots wanting more pay to fly larger airplanes… I’m glad to discuss the NSL with you but you’ll never win me on this subject so please drop it… Their behavior was despicable and there’s not much else to be said about that…


Again - see above argument about scabs, etc. I don't see CAL/AA/Eagle pilots as me "competition," they are fellow pilots. Under an NSL they would be "my own."

I was raised in Europe, were you raised on Soviet Union? :D

Seriously, how can you say that those pilots are not your competition? Do you own your house/condo? Or does it belong to the people? See my point? Your position seem to be more idealistic than Chavez’ over what constitutes a socialistic economy… If you work for a company that has a competitor – the employees at your competitor ARE your competitors too…


I DO see your point here and agree... On the other hand, use British Airways as an example - what BA pilot in their right mind would want anything to do with the work rules and pay we have in the US? Also, according to a friend from the UK, (you know, the old a friend of a friend of a guy that used to know someone's uncle....), seniority over there is transferable and it seems to work out ok.

Your friend’s info is incorrect… I called my Virgin Atlantic acquaintance who laughed at the idea of him holding some kind of “transferable seniority” within the UK… Based on your BA friend’s theory my VA friend should be able to transfer to the British Airways and keep his seniority, right? He said it’s not true and he also agreed that the idea sounds very wrong… He went to Virgin Atlantic when many predicted they wouldn’t survive, others took the safe bet of BA – now that the roles seem to be reversed you want to take away his hard earned seniority from him? Again, it’s the “spread the wealth” mentality…


The competing airlines argument is the most convincing I've heard so far, but are we really competing aginst otherpilots? I mean, come on - we all need to know what we're doing, fly safely and get the pax/boxes there in one piece. We can do that for anybody, and if the qol and pay was the same across the board, would it really matter who? I mean unless someone was in love with the idea of flying for CAL or Delta, what's the difference? If a 76 driver gets paid the same with the same qol no matter where he flies, whats the difference?

Absolutely we are competing – if we aren’t then the whole idea of capitalism is null and void… You seem to think of working for someone as a passive thing – you show up, do your thing and don’t care how your company does… I on the other hand look at it as an active employment; I want to make sure my company does better than my company’s competitor because it means better job security for me… Yes, greed IS a healthy part of capitalism if it doesn’t go overboard…


If UPS folds when you're 50 you'll be scared then, too. Especially with NO prospect of going anywhere else for comparable pay and bennies. Hope the house and boat are paid for. Don't say it couldn't happen, It has happened to a few "unsinkable" airlines.

You’re absolutely correct; it would be a tragedy for me and many of my coworkers – but not for you! …and it shouldn’t be a tragedy for you because I chose to work here and not you, therefore you shouldn’t be penalized if my company fails… A National Seniority List would penalize you and many others heavily in form of delayed upgrades, lost pay and benefits, worst schedules, etc… Probably a good deal in Chavez’ world but here it probably would be considered very unfair but most…

As far as the probability of my company failing – if you’d known me in real life you’d know that I always say I’m lucky today but no one knows what the future will bring... I’m a realist and know that today it’s you and tomorrow it might be me…

However, I will never steal your hard earned money away from you the way a NSL would… ;)


We certainly do need to make our own decisions. You decide to get car or life insurance because anything could happen. This is the same thing. I don't think the government needs to do ANYTHING for an NSL to come about, why would they need to get involved? (Not that they wouldn't get involved, but they wouldn't NEED to.)

You keep defending your idea by saying the government does not need to get involved… Again, IT DOES NOT MATTER who runs that list, it’s still a monopolistic view of looking at things and probably a good deal to some but very unfair to most… Fortunately, even with the leftist gains in Congress and Senate we are still very far away from communism in this country…


Maybe we do need our own thread... Anyway, I was gonna see what a few more experienced guys thought about this, but no one's around tonight. Yay - night shift! I enjoy the debate. Happy flying. Thanks for finding my plane. I definitely miss not living near the shore anymore. CVG's land locked.

Where did you live before? Enjoyed the discussion…

Thanks Zapata. Back to school for me.

From an outsiders perspective. It seems to me that wheresmyplane is speaking from a regional pilots perspective. In the regional world you can do your best as far as performance, but at contracts end the flying you do will be transfered to the lowest bidder who's pilots have a lesser labor contract. When performance numbers are similar the only differentiation is that one airlines pilot group is cheaper. AV8OR is speaking from a major perspective. Major pilots do the best they can to make the airline more money than the competing airline, but do not risk losing their flying to the competing airline based on their cheaper pilot group. Sure the company is going to argue that if you don't lower the pilot group costs they can't compete, but if you continue to do your job well and the company is making money there will be no concessions and certainly no loss of flying to the competitor due to your pilot contract.

Perhaps a better argument for wheresmyplane to make would be for a regional airlines union with one contract. This could possibly curb the problems faced by regional airlines by creating an even playing field instead of having us compete against each other primarily on pilot cost.

Av8or is kind of myopic in a way that he is incapable of seeing the big picture when it comes to piloting profession. In other words, it's all about him and his seniority that's strictly based on his date of hire.

What the man is incapable of seeing is that NSL idea or something along those lines gives pilots the ability to say NO to getting shafted by the carpetbagger management - the pilots are able to port their pay/"seniority" some place else that might pick up the pieces. In other words, we wouldn't be racing to the bottom because we're all divided. Look at all these people voting "YES" to crappy contracts... and why do they do that? Let's see... what's their alternative? 1st year pay some place else... or a concession. But hey... they'll be all over this board chest-thumping how everyone should vote NO!

Totally myopic and totally incapable of seeing the big picture...

"hemaybedid" - I believe "wheremyplane" is furloughed from a major airline but I see your point... I guess I never thought of it that way but it sort of makes sense...



Av8or is kind of myopic in a way that he is incapable of seeing the big picture when it comes to piloting profession. In other words, it's all about him and his seniority that's strictly based on his date of hire.

You can call it myopic I call it logical… I do not want you to pay my mortgage neither do I want your seniority number…

Are you saying that your job is not all about you? If not than I assume you’re donating some 40% or more of your pay and benefits to the “furloughed fund” correct? Because that’s what a NSL would do – people getting in front of you simply because they had bad luck at their previous company… Is it tragic for them, absolutely it is… However, that does not mean their misfortune should turn other peoples’ lives upside down…

What the man is incapable of seeing is that NSL idea or something along those lines gives pilots the ability to say NO to getting shafted by the carpetbagger management - the pilots are able to port their pay/"seniority" some place else that might pick up the pieces. In other words, we wouldn't be racing to the bottom because we're all divided.

Please spare me your lecture - what you see to be incapable of understanding is that communism as an ideology has failed... We will ALWAYS be divided as long as there is competition in this country… I feel a kinship with other pilots BUT I am not willing to give up my benefits for their sake… Neither do I expect that from them... If there's a donation drive due to someone's illness or other tragedy - you bet you I will help out... If our (the key word is OUR) junior pilots are threatened with a furlough you bet you I'll volunteer my money and my time to prevent that from happening... However, to arbitrarily give away my seniority (i.e. money and retirement benefits) to pilots from competing airlines would, in my view, be totally insane…

Look at all these people voting "YES" to crappy contracts... and why do they do that? Let's see... what's their alternative? 1st year pay some place else... or a concession. But hey... they'll be all over this board chest-thumping how everyone should vote NO!

I’m sorry but this it total nonsense… We agree to “crappy contracts” because of the 1st year pay??? :eek: I have no idea what you’re talking about…

Let's say two pilots start their career on the same day – today. After earning their ratings one of them becomes a flight instructor for a year or so then starts at a regional airline for 2 years and then ends up at a premier major airline “A” where he/she gets to fly nice day trips, frequently gets to fly international trips and enjoys great pay and benefits…

The second pilot gets hired at several regional airlines before he ends up at a small low-cost cargo outfit “B” where no one wants to work… In fact people are leaving left and right but he/she decides to give it a chance and stays there for the long run…

Ten years later; the first pilot who’s been at the ‘premier’ outfit for almost 7 years is now looking for a job as the airline “A” has now folded.

The second pilot who’s now been at his cargo outfit “B” for almost 5 years is glad to see that his/her benefits and quality of life have greatly improved since the day he took a gamble on working there… In fact, his low-cost operator has turned into a premier airline and now many other pilots want to work at ‘his’ airline…

Since they both flew the same type of airplane based on the idea of a NSL the pilot from airline “A” can now apply to work at airline “B” and in fact upgrade sooner than the pilot who’s been there for 5 years and who believed in his/her airline when no one else did… :( No way should we ever allow that!

Totally myopic and totally incapable of seeing the big picture...

Totally utopian and totally unable to think logically, moreover extremely unfair – fortunately Americans are smarter than that and it'll never happen…



Back to the subject? ...so was his wife right or not? :D

AV8OR -

Lived in NJ before. Looks like we'll just agree to disagree. Not sure an NSL would ever happen anyway because there seems to be enough people opposed, so it's kind of moot. Hope all's well with your flying. Keep the blue side up.

Appreciate it and I agree (to disagree ;))...

Likewise, stay safe and wish you strong tailwinds (except when landing of course :))…

Why do you think this would turn other people's lives upside down? You seriously think it's logical for a pilot who's "paid his/her dues" to have to start over making "apprentice pay" again? Wow... with logic like that, management has an extremely easy task of dividing any pilot group - simply threaten your seniority with 'paycuts or mass furloughs.'

Again... myopic at best. Communism is what you have right now. Can you have some sh*t-hot pilot come through who can fly circles around you, is better qualified than you, is all over the customer service aspect of the job, treats his crews phenomenally... can this pilot advance before you? See... in communism, he cannot. In free market, unless you kept up with him, your lazy, underperforming a$$ would be on the street or not promoted. Here's the question for you - why shouldn't that pilot be promoted ahead of you and/or paid better than you? Now, when you answer that... address every party, including the company and the customer.

Of course you don't. No disrespect meant, but much of free market concept, and idea of professionalism seem to be well above your level of understanding. But let's continue...

So to you... it's professionally acceptable for a pilot A to make the same wage as you did 7 years ago? You can keep your benefits, bidding for schedules, vacation rate accrual, you name it... but you're OK with pilot A to be set back to making crap wage? How is that benefitting anyone except you? I got a newsflash for you... it's not even benefitting you. Quite the contrary, it's undercutting you.... because you get a guy with say, equal or similar experience working for a fraction of your pay. When I flew at my old airline, and saw UAL/USAir furloughees flying the same airplane I was for literally 30% of what I was making simply because of date-of-hire, I felt nauseated. I was senior... but I saw that as a threat to my job.

Utopian? Can I ask if you've ever traveled outside of the United States? Have you traveled on foreign airlines? Have you seen any employment contracts for pilots working for foreign airlines? I dread traveling on US airlines for a number of reasons... one of the biggest reasons is that the focus on customer is long gone. When I travel internationally either on vacation or to get to my plane, I avoid US airlines like the plague. Let's see... nice, smiling, pleasing-on-the-eyes flight attendants with great customer service skills, and enthusiasm for the job or cranky old b*tches who are flying international because they've been at it for 50 years and you as a customer should consider yourself lucky to get a cup of Coke?

Why is that? Look no further - UNIONS.


Absolutely, unions are so 19th century. They served their purpose... now they're just dead weight.

Why do you think this would turn other people's lives upside down? You seriously think it's logical for a pilot who's "paid his/her dues" to have to start over making "apprentice pay" again? Wow... with logic like that, management has an extremely easy task of dividing any pilot group - simply threaten your seniority with 'paycuts or mass furloughs.

Yes, I do… It’s unfortunate but it can happen to all of us… If you don’t like to take any risks then work for the government; you’ll have a much more predictable career and you won’t have to worry about your company going out of business…

Also, it’s your mentality that’s management’s dream, not mine… You might say the best get the jobs when a union is not present yet I’ve seen it with my own eyes where it’s the biggest butt-kissers who get those jobs… So maybe one day someone else who would like to do your job for half the pay and who also happens to be your boss’ friend will take your job away from you… Then you’ll miss having a seniority number…

Again... myopic at best. Communism is what you have right now. Can you have some sh*t-hot pilot come through who can fly circles around you, is better qualified than you, is all over the customer service aspect of the job, treats his crews phenomenally... can this pilot advance before you? See... in communism, he cannot. In free market, unless you kept up with him, your lazy, underperforming a$$ would be on the street or not promoted. Here's the question for you - why shouldn't that pilot be promoted ahead of you and/or paid better than you? Now, when you answer that... address every party, including the company and the customer. Of course you don't.

No, communism is what YOU want; you want affirmative action for less fortunate pilots and use the ‘free market’ concept as an excuse… YOU are the one who wants to delay other pilots' advancements just because you (or someone you know) had bad luck in your previous job… It's horrible BUT that’s a “share the wealth” mentality so please stop using free market economy as an excuse…

You keep repeating that the best and the brightest get promoted first at companies without the unions – well, maybe that happens too but very often the upgrade and promotion is based on a “buddy-buddy” system and you fail to recognize that…

To follow up on your question how exactly will you measure a pilot’s performance at an airline with lets say 12,000 pilots? Are you going to take those who haven’t called in sick and upgrade them sooner than those who called in sick a time or two? Or will you speed up upgrades for those who always answer the calls from crew scheduling? Even on their days off? Or will you come up with some other arbitrary way of measuring this “performance” goal?

By the way, you never said anything about the example I brought up in my previous post? Do you honestly think a person who took a chance on an airline no one wanted to work for initially should be bypassed by someone who enjoyed higher pay and benefits at another carrier but now that his/her airline is gone wants to ‘reconsider’ the “crappy” airline after all? Of course, it’s based on the “performance,” right? Yeah, that’s right, that’s what butt kissing is called nowadays…

No disrespect meant, but much of free market concept, and idea of professionalism seem to be well above your level of understanding.

Above my level of understanding? Oh well, maybe so but fortunately we all have “know-it-alls” such as you who’re willing to educate the less fortunate masses…

You seem to believe that anyone who disagrees with your point of view is uneducated and has no clue on this subject… Well, maybe you’re right, I don’t know, but you’re not helping by repeating “no disrespect” followed by yet another personal attack…

I find it interesting that when you try to make a point I am simply not educated enough and when I disagree with your logic or lack of it, then well, I’m being myopic – how convenient for you…

But let's continue... So to you... it's professionally acceptable for a pilot A to make the same wage as you did 7 years ago? You can keep your benefits, bidding for schedules, vacation rate accrual, you name it... but you're OK with pilot A to be set back to making crap wage?

If he/she comes to a “new” airline yes, I think that’s ok… Now, many airlines, including mine have horrendously low first year pay rates and that’s something we should work on. However, no one ever likes to hear “at my previous airline I used to do things this way” – why should we then be hearing “at my previous airline I used to make this and that much” – what’s the point? That’s history, let’s move on…

How is that benefitting anyone except you? I got a newsflash for you... it's not even benefitting you. Quite the contrary, it's undercutting you.... because you get a guy with say, equal or similar experience working for a fraction of your pay. When I flew at my old airline, and saw UAL/USAir furloughees flying the same airplane I was for literally 30% of what I was making simply because of date-of-hire, I felt nauseated. I was senior... but I saw that as a threat to my job.


I wouldn’t say it’s benefiting me or anyone else… Should we improve the initial pay rates – absolutely! Should new hires use a different pay scale just because of where they used to work before – no, I don’t thinks that’s right…

Utopian? Can I ask if you've ever traveled outside of the United States? Have you traveled on foreign airlines? Have you seen any employment contracts for pilots working for foreign airlines?

Sure you can, in fact you just did…;) Born and raised in Europe, lived in 3 European countries before the US… I fly international trips quite often and have flown commercially on numerous international airlines… Singapore Airlines being my top choice… As far as foreign airlines, not sure why it matters but one of my friends is laid off from JAL; I know several pilots flying for Cathay, Emirates, ANA and of course numerous European carriers…

I dread traveling on US airlines for a number of reasons... one of the biggest reasons is that the focus on customer is long gone. When I travel internationally either on vacation or to get to my plane, I avoid US airlines like the plague. Let's see... nice, smiling, pleasing-on-the-eyes flight attendants with great customer service skills, and enthusiasm for the job or cranky old b*tches who are flying international because they've been at it for 50 years and you as a customer should consider yourself lucky to get a cup of Coke? Why is that? Look no further - UNIONS.

I agree with everything you’ve said here except I put the blame mainly on the political correctness in our country… The ACLU mentality is killing the customer service, not the unions… (although I do agree that sometimes the unions defend some of our members who probably do not deserve do be defended)

Absolutely, unions are so 19th century. They served their purpose... now they're just dead weight.

We’ll just have to agree to disagree… I think you’re in favor of what the Russians call the “Wild West Capitalism” whereas I’m in favor of a capitalistic system where the needs of the employer and the employees are equally important… Ideally you want a balance between the two…

I feel that our views are so opposite that maybe we should simply agree to disagree?

I’ll keep enjoying my “seniority” driven career while you will enjoy your “performance” driven profession and hopefully we both can stay happy?

You're right Av8or... we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Cheers!

Fair enough, cheers to you too! :)