look at our future
 

First year pay
Republic First year pay E170 year 1. CAPT $59, FO $23.
Lynx Aviation First year Q400 year 1. CAPT $50, FO $21.

Frontier First year pay A318/319. CAPT $111, FO $37.
Delta First year pay A319/320. CAPT $143, FO $52.

Third year pay
Frontier A318/319 CAPT $117, FO 73.
Delta A319/320 CAPT $145, FO 90.

Looks like the out look is a lot of pilots are going to be flying for the regionals and low cost carriers. Lets leave the low pay and dues paying in our carriers to the college campus. I think first year pay at an airline should be at or above the average family income for the city you are based in.

I don't think most airlines will be around for 30 years with out going through bankruptcies. Why do all the unions fight so hard for a contract that pays so little in the beginning and so much more around the 30 year mark.

I think we should push for 5 year pay scales so we can reach our companies top pay in 5 years. If the company you work for goes under when the economy tanks every ten years plus or minus a little you will have maid top pay for a couple of years.

We need to change the industry for the better because what we are doing is not working in a deregulated industry. We have large pay gape between companies and equipment. The largest cost that an airline can control is labor. The largest two cost that are variable are fuel and labor.

If we keep blaming the other guy, the old pilot or the young pilot, the company, management, government, the customer, we are going to get nowhere.

We all have something to offer lets make a difference and stop waiting for some one else to do it for us. How the change will come i don't know but i think all of us want to see the the profession change the direction it is going.

I love to fly i don't want to do something else. If i have kids i want them to fly if they so choose. If you guys feel the same way lets do something lets work for a common goal.

The industry is changing and we are fighting to restore the old way. Lets find a new way.

check out the link it is along read but worth it.

Aircraft Pilots and Flight Engineers

Job Outlook [About this section] Back to Top
Regional airlines and low-cost carriers will present the best opportunities; pilots attempting to get jobs at the major airlines will face strong competition.

Employment change. Employment of aircraft pilots and flight engineers is projected to grow 13 percent from 2006 to 2016, about as fast as the average for all occupations. Population growth and an expanding economy are expected to boost the demand for air travel, contributing to job growth. New jobs will be created as airlines expand their capacity to meet this rising demand by increasing the number of planes in operation. However, employment growth will be limited by productivity improvements as airlines switch to larger planes and adopt the low-cost carrier model that emphasizes faster turnaround times for flights, keeping more pilots in the air rather than waiting on the ground. Also, fewer flight engineers will be needed as new planes requiring only two pilots replace older planes that require flight engineers.

Job prospects. Job opportunities are expected to continue to be better with the regional airlines and low-cost carriers, which are growing faster than the major airlines. Opportunities with air cargo carriers also should arise because of increasing security requirements for shipping freight on passenger airlines, growth in electronic commerce, and increased demand for global freight. Business, corporate, and on-demand air taxi travel also should provide some new jobs for pilots.

Pilots attempting to get jobs at the major airlines will face strong competition, as those firms tend to attract many more applicants than the number of job openings. Applicants also will have to compete with laid-off pilots for any available jobs. Pilots who have logged the greatest number of flying hours using sophisticated equipment typically have the best prospects. For this reason, military pilots often have an advantage over other applicants.

In the long run, demand for air travel is expected to grow along with the population and the economy. In the short run, however, employment opportunities of pilots generally are sensitive to cyclical swings in the economy. During recessions, when a decline in the demand for air travel forces airlines to curtail the number of flights, airlines may temporarily furlough some pilots.

Deregulation isn't the issue.

That is the issue.

I do love to fly but i have chosen not to work for the regionals due to low pay. But i would like to fly for one day. I also want to get paid to fly.

I don't think that wanting to fly is the problem. I like to fly.

The problem is someone who is willing to work for substandard pay and qol because they like doing it. A bigger problem than that is someone who is willing to work for peanuts for a few years in order to get to the dangling carrot. Unfortunately, more or less, that is how the game is played.

I think you are right these are some of the problems. Pilots that vote on a contract that lets junior pilots work for peanuts is also a problem.

Yup. If people were willing to walk away, things would be better for everyone else. Too many pilots looking for jobs. Unions can only temper the normal way of supply/demand. The forces are still at work.

You have to take more than that into account. Don't get me wrong... I think we should all get paid more but you have to look at the big picture when you are displaying these stats.

Monthly Guarantee
Frontier 75 hrs
Delta 65 hrs

Tenth year pay
Frontier 320 CAPT $146 = Yearly Guarantee $131,400
Delta 320 CAPT $153 = Yearly Guarantee $119,340

Fifth Year Pay
Frontier 320 FO $82 =Yearly Guarantee $73,800
Delta 320 FO $94 =Yearly Guarantee $73,320

Per Diem
Frontier $1.85
Delta $2.00/hr

Other work rules and retirement play a HUGE part in the overall compensation package as well.

My point is: It is not as cut and dry as you make it seem. Delta probably has a higher overall compensation than Frontier but it takes more than comparing a few years pay scales to figure that out. Same with Lynx and Republic. I'm sure the RAH guys make quite a bit more than the Lynx pilots overall.

I think Unions were good and they have done great thinks for the industry in regards to safety. I think if we got rid of all the unions we would be better off. I think pilots would walk away if they didn't have to start over when they came back. Why does a furloughed major airline pilot have to start over at the bottom of the hill in regards to pay. In other parts of the world and in other industries people go form job to job with out pay cuts.

The system the unions created is not working for me 20,000 dollars to fly a 50 seat jet is not right. And then to ask this person to pay dues on that 20,000 is even worse. Most regional pilots are going to be regional pilots forever or they are going to walk away.

Are you willing to walk away?

You are spot on. My point is if airline A's cost structure is a lot higher than airline B's due to pilot pay then the lower cost airline is more competitive and bankruptcies will happen i just want to get paid early in my career because their is a good chance pilots today will never see 30 year at one company.

I walked back in December.

But, I waited until the dire end. I had received my furlough notice and was just about to miss Christmas at home for the second time in a row, only to come back right after the new year to be displaced to a different base (IAH) and sit reserve after I had been a line holder for over a year, just to be thrown onto the street three months later while working for one of the worst regionals in the business who was shedding airplanes like no tomorrow, shrinking left and right with no end in sight, coupled with the infamous alter-ego stepsister hiring off the street simultaneously.

I crunched the numbers and came to the conclusion that it was time to bail. Plus, I wanted to catch the spring semester back at school to better myself a bit outside of aviation instead of waiting until after the furlough to start six months later in the summer. Plus, if I got a callback anytime soon, I'd be smack in the middle of a semester (likely) and would probably have to either quit school for another go at the carrier or turn down the callback anyway.

Despite all this, though, I am patiently waiting on the sidelines. If this industry ever turns into something worth pursuing, I might give it another go. But am not afraid (in fact I am doing it now) to do something else. I am not their b$#@!. Life is too short.

Also, how many first years are flying the Airbus at Delta??? Pay rates are lower for 3 of the other airplanes. Doesn't make it right, but make sure the comparisons are accurate.

Well I am glad to see you talk the talk and walk the walk.
If some day you want to come back wouldn't it be nice to get paid for your experience and not your seniority number. Unions should be for safety, seniority for schedule and experience for pay.

I got furloughed from a fractional built my time hauling freight so i am an outsider looking into the airline world. Good luck with school.

My post was probably too short. I was referring to those who willfully settle for low wages as opposed to those who view a particular job as a stepping stone.

"Why does a furloughed major airline pilot have to start over at the bottom of the hill in regards to pay"

This is only true if that pilot gives up a seniority number at the airline he/she is furloughed from.

You have no leverage.
 

Were not in the situation were in because we like the work we do. If that was true, more interesting jobs would pay less. Thats not how the world works.

The reason why we seem to be moving backwards when everyone else is moving forward is the fact that we are covered under a peice of legislation unique to the airlines and railways which severely restricts our negotiating powers. That is why airline management can push us around like they do. If we carried a big gun in our belt (read: ability to strike) we wouldn't be pushed around. Wouldn't it be wonderfull if you could "set the brake" the next time your airline furloughs out of seniority, stalls you contract negotiations or worse?

Airline Pilots continue to work under deteriorating conditions because they don’t have a choice. Their hands are tied under the Railway Labor Act. In practical terms, airline pilots cannot strike airline management is well aware of that. Therefore, in times of economic growth, it is in the best interest of the airline negotiators to stall and maintain status quo. It is near impossible to improve the overall conditions of the pilot groups because of the RLA. Major changes happen when people die in plane crashes but not when pilots forewarn about unacceptable conditions. Compared to other economically unregulated industries that are covered by the National Labor Relations Act (NLRA), the employees of the airline industry have very little leverage. The RLA prevents employees from engaging in self help, carries no provisions for unfair labor practices, and contracts have no set expiration dates. These three major differences cause unionized airline employees to be at an unfair disadvantage when compared to the rest of the population. In addition, the “fly now grieve later” rule allows the schedulers to force pilots to complete tasks that may be against their contract.

The effects of the RLA became particularly obvious after the terrorist attacks of 9/11 where pilot groups accepted supposedly temporary pay cuts to keep their companies in business. In the subsequent years, airlines became profitable, however, the pilot groups did not have enough leverage to regain any lost territory in a timely fashion. Before any progress was made, the economic cycle had turned around and threats of furloughs and additional outsourcing to cheaper subcontractors deterred further progress in negotiation.

The restricting elements of the RLA, preventing pilot groups from engaging in self-help need to be amended to reflect those of the NRLA. An even better solution would be to free the airline employees from the RLA altogether and treat the airline industry as the deregulated industry it is and place it under the laws of the NRLA. If the government sees a need to use aviation as a public utility, it should be completely regulated and subsidized as such. Otherwise, aviation should be treated as an industry in its own right and unionized airline employees should have the same self-help rights as the majority of the population. Release the airline employees from the Railway Labor Act.

The RLA is designed to prevent interruptions in service. Those in power have decided that the railway system and airlines serve such a vital role in the nation's transportation system - upon which so many businesses rely - that a strike is to be pushed off as long as possible by delaying through mediation, mandatory cooling periods, etc. That is its purpose.

If you back away from the "pilot think" and look at it from the government's viewpoint, the motive for the act is sound. It is sort of the same reason that railroad companies are prevented from filing for liquidation bankruptcy. We can't really afford for them to go out of business. Someone has to haul the #$!@ around.

Accordingly, the RLA (or some amended variant) isn't going anywhere.

NSL questions
 

Suppose a furloughed pilot could "bump in" at another carrier. Wouldn't that stagnate or even displace the junior guys who were already there? What if he wasn't furloughed, but just decided to make a lateral move to a better job? If he came in at the bottom for seniority purposes but kept his old pay rate, wouldn't that be a "reverse B-scale", with senior pilots making less than juniors in the same seat?

Like "age 65", the NSL would probably be accepted if it were in place when everyone started flying -- it's the transition in mid-career that will cause problems.

I don't think it would displace anyone because the positions would be filled as needed. If a slot was opened, someone would be hired into it. If no slots were open, no one would be hired to cause others to be pushed out.

The problem is how to schedule. Unlike most jobs where everyone works set hours, the airline world deals with par and sub par schedules and all must be divided in some equitable way. After all, someone has to sit reserve. Seniority is logical in this sense, but is there another way? Food for thought anyways.

We all love flying
 

All of us here love flying. Flying however does not love us.

Pilots have to accept that a large portion of their compensation comes in the form of job satisfaction. Aviation is becoming less of a job and more of a religion. You make sacrifices over the next guy to stay in the saddle.

Every ten years the industry will constrict and squeeze out another 10 to 20% of the pilots work force. Each time some will choose not to return and new ones will jump in to take their place. Every new cycle will bring more bankruptcies and lower pilot wages. It is a constant grind to find the bottom.

The hard reality is that if you want to be a pilot then you have to endure crushing wages, frequent job changes and a dimming future.

Skyhigh

None! There are no first year pilots at DL - the last class was May 08. The junior 320 FO was hired in January 08 - so there ARE year and a half FO's flying the bus.

How about everybody serves one day per week of reserve? Just part of the schedule. Solves the problem of the most junior and inexperienced person getting no flying, and having no life.

A typical 3 or 4 day trip could have the last day on reserve. BTW, the rest of the world already figured that out.

Did you know that their are TWA guys on the street that have numbers at AMR. I think they have started over at the bottom with recards to pay. What about the Aloha pilots that are mid career these guys are going to take a pay cuts to still fly in the united states.

The Railway Labor Act is a slow process for the me generation. It was never designed to help out the worker it was designed to keep transportation moving and it works pretty well. Strike give me a break most airline are to big to fail. We need a different system. i would be willing to try something new.

How long would it take for a failing airline to vanish and clear up the system? here is a link that sheds some light on it.
USATODAY.com - Struggling airlines can stay aloft for years

I think we should be more concerned with getting paid based on experience not on seniority. I don't want to displace any one, schedule and furloughs based off seniority, pay based off experience. That way if your airline changes your base and the new airline has a open spots you could possibly take a job with the new airline and not have to commute or move to your new base. Today you can take a pay cut, move or commute if your airline moves its bases. Or you can quit.

Bringing the fight indoors?
 

Disconnecting pay from seniority is a pretty radical idea, but maybe we need to consider it. There would certainly be some objections. First, companies would have to be forced to hire the high-wage veterans instead of low-wage rookies. No incumbents would be displaced, but it would "lock in" a pay inversion (reverse B-scale). There would be an internal battle over the next contract proposal, with senior, lower-paid pilots wanting parity, and junior, better-paid pilots saying "you still have less years of experience than I do." The company might say "forget it -- nobody gets a pay raise, because we had to spend it all on the new-hires."

Although the pay-for-experience idea has some definite merits for the profession as a whole, I doubt that any individual company or pilot group will voluntarily take in "refugees" except at the bottom of the seniority and pay scales. (Unless, of course, the refugees bring some nice airplanes with them).

The bottom line is they likely hood that i will see 30 year captain pay comes down to luck if pilots were compensated on what they are bringing to the company vs how long they have been with a company. Most pilots that fly for a career will stay in the profession long enough to gain the experience to be compensated fairly for there skills. this is just a idea.

Honestly i am not willing to bet that any of the companies that are here today will be here in 30 years. And i am tired of companies using labor as a bargaining chip. As far as forcing companies to hire more experienced pilots i don't think that is a good idea. Companies that want to hire low time pilots should be able to do so. We can always let the media and the insurance companies know which companies choose this option. I think if the public had a way to compare airlines other than just the lowest ticket price they may choose differently. If the insurance companies could compare pilot experience at airline A vs airline B their rates will probably be different. But sooner that later most pilots will be experienced and wages will go up. It is not a perfect solution but at least you would have control over you future more experience = more pay. Airline's should consider pilot wages as a normal cost of doing business (airplanes do not fly themselves and pilot cannot learn everything in a sim). The fear that old pilots will be replaced by young inexperienced pilots is a perfect law suit waiting to happen. Companies don't get ride of union pilots for no reason. New airline don't start up with flight instructors fresh out of sim training.

Unions are good at safety related things let them do what they are good at.
we need a new way to determine a pilots worth other than years of service at a specific airline. The one airline for life thing worked great when they made money and didn't file Bankruptcy all the time.

What will happen when their is a world airline?
They want a world currency and a globe economy.

The RLA made sense when there were only a few airlines with little overlapp in route structure. Today, domestic travel would not be crippled by most strikes.

I think the biggest issue with this is the fact that interpreting experience is very subjective. For example, who is more experienced among a 2,000 hour carrier-based fighter pilot, a 7,000 hour regional jet captain, and a 5,000 hour 747 first officer? I don't think one can definitively point to a set of criteria and arrive at a black-and-white answer on that one because there are just too many variables to consider.

I know people with low time and years of flying who are great aviators as well as people with 10 times the experience but half the common sense. Sometimes experience cannot be measured quantitatively.

The way the system is set up now is in fact paying you based on experience. Experience, for the most part gets you the interview. You submit an application based on hours and level(s) of experience and that leads you to a job (seniority number). Hopefully the job lasts, but unless one has a crystal ball it is impossible to tell. We make the best decisions that we can with the information we have available.

What you are proposing sounds like a "plan B" in case the first plan falls through. That proposal in fact may do more harm than good with regards to hiring. In this hypothetical situation, most managers would assume hire a low experienced person because the pay would be much lower for the same type of work.

Here is some food for thought.

What is the difference between the airline industry of 20 years ago and the airline industry of today?

20 years ago you had major airlines and you had commuter airlines. The commuter airlines were created to feed small loads of passengers to the major hubs of major carriers. Commuter airlines were never intended to be a career destination for most people and were viewed strictly as places to build time and move on.

20 years ago you didn't fly three hours on a regional jet because they were not around. What is currently served by a regional jet operated by a regional airline today was served by a mainline DC-9 or 737 (or larger in some cases) then.

Bottom line is this: the regionals were never designed to become career destinations for the average pilot. The reason many people are staying longer at a regional is not completely due to unions or management, but more so due to the current business model of the airline industry. And because of the way the regionals are set up and operated (read: low cost), it is impossible to turn those jobs into what they used to be 20 years ago with the majors.

I think we might have been typing at the same time look at my last post.
A points system may work or we could say it probably took them all ten years plus to gain their experience and pay them the same.

We could also do nothing and ***** about our jobs on flight info.

No thanks. Watching paint dry would do more for my I.Q. than reading flight info. :D

The world has changed and so has the airline business a lot of people will be at regionals for life and some major airline pilots will be working for regionals or low cost carriers in there not so distant future if wall street is right. They think one or two majors have to go or merge. 50% of domestic flying is done by regionals we all are not going to step over that magic line to a better life at the majors.

I also am not a fan of flight info.

That is such a good idea! It really bugs me when I'm flying with line holders who are talking about how they are crediting 100+ hours each month when I never break guarantee.

Awesome post

...But at least partially incorrect.

The problem is the Railway Labor Act.

We are covered by a peice of legislation, unique to airline and railway workers, that regards self-help as a criminal action. The provisions of the RLA are obsolete and creates a lot of stagnation and damage to our negotiating process.

Why do you think the starting pay of a 250h wonder in Europe is 2-3 times higher as compared to the U.S.? It's not because they have fewer applicants or higher regulatory minimums.
The major difference is that they aren’t held back by government regulations. Our inability to strike unless the company is in blatant disregard of their contract is a huge obstacle to union leverage.

Why do you think we have such a hard time negotiating a good contract? Because unlike the rest of the union-negotiated-contacts in the U.S. ours have no expiration dates as per the RLA. In comparison the NLRA states 3 years or as negotiated in the contract. Rules such as the “grieve it and fly later” is also an inbuilt roadblock to self help.

The outcome is this:

What happens if the pilots of the Scandinavian Airlines System are in strong disagreement with the company? They set the parking brake!

What happens if the pilots of a US carrier are in disagreement with their company?
The fly it and grieve it = nothing!


Remember, the company is always going to get their way under the RLA. All it takes is a good lawyer. Look at Republic. Their scope states that republic owned aircraft must be flown by republic pilots. But somehow that clause is going to be circumvented by selling off 51%. If the pilots at RAH weren't covered by the RLA they would have the opportunity to do as any violated labor group and say: no way, we set the brake until you [RAH] do what’s right!

We don't need scope clauses, commuter rules or other legal shields because they can be busted and circumvented in almost any case. What we need is the freedom that the rest of this country is taking granted, the freedom to stand up for ourselves and ensure fairness and decency is taking place. Changing this piece of regulation is not an act of agression towards the airlines, it levels the play field. The removal of the RLA will put the airlines with the worst working conditions at risk. This could assist the passing of such airlines and provide the better contestants with an opportunnity for growth.


Rant over...

One thing I have noticed from talking to those that have been in the biz for 25-30 years is that a lot have something going on the side to pad their wallets and protect themselves from a nasty industry. Some examples of people I know: Importing rare cars from overseas for customers, realestate agent (maybe not so good anymore), sim instuctor for another company, aircraft detail business, and personally I have a small photography.
What I'm saying is that our schedules allow us to diversify our talents and split our eggs between a couple different baskets. Even in a down economy there is money to be made.

Oh and I've always been a fan of flat rates based on aircraft seats. If you're qualified you're qualified and you get paid for the job you are doing.

What has to be done to relieve ourselves from the railway labor Act?

I would be fine with a flat rate of pay based on your aircraft plus profit sharing.

Large gaps in pay for doing the same task really is saying i want two divided groups doing the same task.

Read and learn about the RLA, email senator Dorgan and your government officials. Talk to your coworkers about it and encourage them to do the same. This is extremely important and worthwile.

[email protected]
or Fax (202) 224-1193

You are spot on. Every Pilot should read this and then send a letter to their senator and congress man. I am about to send a letter to mine here in Tennessee. One person writing them all doesn't work because they only read stuff from "voters" in their precinct so lets hit them up and change this crap. Please guys/ gals if you want this to change do the same. If you don't then live with it. It only takes a few min. each after you have your letter then just copy and paste to save time. We are in a unique time right now with the recent CO crash and all the legislation they are making to "improve safety".

How about improve it by restructuring it to encourage professionals to stay in the industry rather than push us away. For Christs sake they just gave GM and other failing company's unions the majority of the company when they failed because they were the ones building the cars. But, if an airline fails, a pilot's whole pension is ****ed away and no one seems to care. Its criminal I tell ya. Make's you want to go expat. Its sad when you could do better in this profession in a communist country.